Those contortions look painful, Mr. Yost. Aren't there easier and more immediate examples at hand? What of a law that targeted the apparel of the Mennonite traditions? A ban on broad-brimmed black hats and white lace caps, for instance? Easy enough to construct a political/national security rationale: The Mennonite's intractable peace ministry reveals their so-called religious beliefs to be nothing more than a subversive political ideology aimed at undermining the defensive capability of the U.S.A. And what difference is there from the 17th century silliness during which Quaker refusal to doff a hat was a jailable offence? Since the Quaker practice was explicitly aimed at subverting the social and religious order that underpinned the British Empire, that was also deemed a legitimate national security matter, as per this brief excerpt from Littel's _Living Age_ (Volume 128, Issue 1658), The Quaker's Hat: "The Quakers were incorrigible. They were sent back to prison, but not really so much for the wearing of their hats as for the suspicion that they were royalist emissaries affecting religious singularity in order to win their way amongst the extreme Puritans. Indeed a Major Seely actually gave evidence-false enough-that he had heard George Fox boast that he "could raise forty thousand men at an hour's warning, involve the nation in blood, and so bring in King Charles." These first public prosecutions for the sake of the hat happened in 1656. In the following year John ap John was put in prison at Tenby for wearing his hat in the church. George Fox went to the mayor, justice, and governor of the prison, and asked them why the Quaker was imprisoned, while the Puritan minister was left in freedom; he had seen the minister "in the steeple-house, with two caps on his head, a black one and a white one, while John ap John had but one." The brims of the "priest's" hat were cut off; the brims of the Quaker's hat were left on "to defend him from the weather." Was the difference in brims cause enough for imprisonment? "These are frivolous things," said the governor. "Why then," replied the patriarch of the Quakers, "dost thou cast my friend into prison for frivolous things?" Ring familiar? In case you're wondering, I do take this personally. As a Quaker whose lineage includes Mary Dyer, one of the "Boston Martyrs," I'm a bit sensitive on the issue of legal penalties for religious expression. All Best, Wm. Dolphin Ontario, California -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Eric Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:07 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Religion & Public Reason On 8/11/2010 2:05 PM, Phil Enns wrote: > It seems to me obvious that a law banning the > wearing of the niqab is directed at religious beliefs. Consider my previous post, which expresses the view that the niqab is not a token of mainstream religious belief among Muslims, but an emblem of Wahabbi propaganda. Phil is indeed producing a very coherent and thoughtful argument, based on fairness. Yet it is hard to create a non-Muslim thought experiment with which to test this fairness principle. Here's an attempt. If radical Aryan Nation-related religious cults required women to dress in armored bomb-disposal suits, there would certainly be an argument in favor of banning that practice in certain social settings. Would that be "illiberal"? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3065 - Release Date: 08/11/10 11:34:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html