Is it significant in some way that Nations with huge Islamic populations like India and Indonesia are not in the forefront of Islamic Radicalism? Is it significant that they have a great number who are not Radicals? 1. In the first place, our war against Islamism, aka terrorism, aka radical Islam, etc had a beginning and is growing. The Arabs have claimed it with some justification because of the Saudi Wahhabis, the Egyptian (they like to think of themselves as Arab) Muslim Brothers, Sayyid Qutb and a host of others. 2. Iranian Islamism had its beginning in Iran and did extend itself into Lebanon (something Phil blithely refers to as a "civil war"), but it hasn’t grown to the extent that Khomeini hoped it would. He imagined an Islamic revolution, but the war with Iraq hampered his plans and then he died. 3. So when we concern ourselves with a "Moderate" backlash against Islamism, we are of course concerned about the Arab and Persian radicals. Their nations are the localities that have been threatening the rest of the world. These are the places where there has been an dearth of Moderates. Moderates have not hampered the growth of radical Islam in these regions. Quite the contrary. Radical Islam has rather effectively shut the mouths of the Moderates 4. It misunderstands the Radical Islamist menace to create a new paradigm, one in which the non-radicals predominate, or at least possess a significant presences. We are not at war with a quantitative construction. We are at war with real radicals who have declared war against us and are bent upon carrying it out. Moderates are scarce in the Arab and Persian centers of Radical Islam. 5. Well, what of the other regions? Aren’t the moderates in places like India and Indonesia in a position to counter Radical Islam in Arabia and Persia? Aren’t they rolling it back? And even if they aren’t rolling it back, aren’t they at least maintaining a secure Moderate presence. Does Indonesia have to worry about Islamic Radicalism? 5.a. http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/000254.php This article is entitled "Radical Islam's inroads in Indonesia" In it Endy M. Bayuni of the Jakarta Post is quoted as saying, "Political Islam has been making significant inroads ever since Indonesia embarked on democracy in 1998. To the casual observer, the specter of Islamist political forces overrunning secular parties in democratic elections seems all too real in a country where nearly 90 percent of its 220 million people are Muslims." The Radicals don’t have perfectly smooth sailing in Indonesia, but their numbers and influence is increasing. 5.b. http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=23417 This article describes the bombing of Jakarta’s Marriott Hotel in August of 2003. The article goes on to discuss the pan-border Jemaah Islamiya (JI, literally "Islamic Communities") network that seems to have made in-roads into Indonesia. 5.6. http://www.indonesiamatters.com/385/nu-mosques-subverted/ This is an Indonesian Blog which among other things refers to the takeover of Indonesia Mosques by Fundamentalists: "Recently hundreds of mosques built by NU people have been taken over by fundamentalist groups. The reason they give is that this is a house of god. They even say that the teachings of the NU are heretical." 6. My reference to Malcom Kerr was not a "conclusion" as Phil states but a separate comment; something that should be of interest to anyone taking an academic position in a University in an Islamic nation in which Radical Islam is making significant inroads. Phil suggests that Kerr was somehow caught up in a shootout between rival factions in a civil war. That isn’t the case. He was assassinated by Islamists. 6.a. As Martin Kramer writes, Kerr was the son of AUB, a founder and past president of MESA, a supporter of Arab causes . . .. "In it [his inaugural address in Beirut], he pointed to the evolution of AUB ‘from a university offering Western culture to the Arabs, to one that promotes both Western and Arab cultures and implicitly looks for a symbolic relation between them, in the best tradition of European Orientalism.’ In 1984, Kerr was gunned down outside his office, by assassins who must have seen this symbiosis and its best tradition as forms fo imperialism." 6.b. Here is a NYT article reporting Kerr’s assassination: UNIVERSITY HEAD KILLED IN BEIRUT; GUNMEN ESCAPE By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES The president of the American University of Beirut, Malcolm H. Kerr, was killed here today when unidentified gunmen fired two bullets into his head while he was walking to his office. Soon after the killing of the 52-year- old educator, a male caller telephoned the Beirut office of Agence France- Presse and said the slaying was the work of Islamic Holy War - supposedly a pro-Iranian underground group. Callers saying they were from Islamic Holy War took responsibility for bombing the American Emb... January 19, 1984 World News 6.c. This was an editorial at the time, presumably from the NYT, but I’m not sure: More Murder in Beirut In the murk that is Lebanon, there is a danger that the murder of yet another American might be seen as just so much more savagery. But the killing of Malcolm Kerr, president of the American University of Beirut, is a particularly barbaric challenge. Far from qualifying as a fanatic's "nationalist" gesture, it is a grave assault on civilization everywhere. It is from http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/a/assassinations_and_attempted_assassinations/index.html?s=oldest&; 6.d. Here is a Time Magazine article of Kerr’s assassination: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,954090,00.html?promoid=googlep The writer of the article writes that Kerr "was shot dead by two unknown gunmen, apparently for no reason except that he was an American." Well, Phil might take comfort in that. Lawrence Helm San Jacinto ------------Original Message------------ From: "Phil Enns" <phil.enns@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Sat, Jun-23-2007 3:41 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Islam vs the Islamists Lawrence Helm wrote: "It is "fairly obvious" to me that every time someone produces a lot of "moderates" to refute me they find them either in the United States or some other place outside of the Middle East." I do apologize for giving the largest Muslim country in the world as an example of where one might find moderates actively working against extremists. What was I thinking? For future reference, I take it that you would prefer discussion of the lack of moderates in Islam to focus solely on Iran and Saudi Arabia? Lawrence: "As to Indonesia ...if there is a trend in regard to Moderates vs Radicals, it is against the former and in favor of the latter." Yes, well don't let me bother that perfectly usable preconception of yours with pesky facts. I like your use of the word 'trend'. It is so wonderfully vague while giving the impression of being precise. Lawrence concludes: "Congratulations on your appointment, but don't overestimate the moderation you believe is there. Remember what happened to Malcom Kerr." Marvelous! Instead of seeing my appointment as a sign of moderate Muslims fighting back against extremism, you bring up a murder from Lebanon at the height of its civil war. For the record, I am well aware of the risks but some of us think it important to respond when moderate Muslims reach out. And we miss the tropics. Particularly fresh Mangoes and Guava. Sincerely, Phil Enns