[lit-ideas] Re: Anarchism and Leftism
- From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:15:11 +0100
Ignoring the initial hyperbole we have:
"Israel signed a treaty with Lebanon which required the removal of any
extra-governmental organizations from Israel's border. Lebanon signed the
treaty. Israel returned home. Lebanon did not keep the treaty and allowed
Hezbollah to stay on Israel's border. Israel did nothing until their border
was breached."
Which treaty are you reffering to Lawrence? The one signed but not implemented
in 1983? Israel eventually retreated in 2000 and a lot happened between those
two dates. Do you really believe that Israel retreated as a result of signing
the 1983 treaty?
Of more relevance is UN resolution 1559, dating from 2004.
Until more information comes to light, I don't accept that it was Israel's
border was breached. There remains the possibility that Israel enacted the
initial incursion.
"And yet you feel a need to examine Israel's motives; but then so does every
good Islamist. As the British historian David Selbourne has so eloquently
written in The Losing Battle with Islam, it is a common ploy with the Islamists
to attack someone and then blame the attacked for the attack. That is
precisely what was done in the case of the Hizbollah/Hamas attack on Israel."
Lawrence, you're being ignorant yourself if you don't believe Israel has any
motive past defending itself. And of course, you then go on to misreperesent my
position and that of the left in assuming an alliance with Islamists. No such
alliance exists except in the imagination of the US Right.
"You distrust Israel, the only Liberal Democracy in the region and give the
benefit of doubt to a terrorist organization. Do I have that right? I thought
so. "
No, yet again you're willfully misrepresenting. Yes I distrust Israel, but that
doesn't mean to say I 'prefer' a terrorist organisation. For one, I'm not
convinced Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation - the EU agrees with me - for
another I'm not so ignorant as to believe that Hezbollah is in all ways bad. To
turn your criticism back on you, do you suspect Hezbollah of having alterior
motives in providing social works to the local population.
Can Israel do no wrong in your eyes?
Picking out the odd comment from the rest we have:
"Furthermore we should support any Liberal Democracy that wants our help"
Brilliant Lawrence. Yet the US under Bush imposes sanction on the Palestinians
for voting in the wrong party and you couldn't give a toss about the declining
value of Lebanese democracy in the face of Israel's destruction of the
country's infrastructure. The US under Bush supports democracy providing it
agrees with the victor and is happy to support dictatorships where the dictator
is an ally. It's not about liberal democracy Lawrence, it's about market access.
More generally, you seem to think that it's all or nothing; that if people
don't support the US under Bush then they must be supporting the Islamists.
Sorry Lawrence, but that's rubbish. When set against terrorism, Bush's response
has been a strategy that has served to create more islamists than have been
killed.
"If by scorn you mean my warning that you are supporting an ideology that
considers the freedom you enjoy anathema to it, consider scorn to have been
heaped."
Lawrence, I disagree in strong terms with the policies of the US under Bush.
That does not mean I support fundamentalist Islam in whatever form. I don't
even believe in god (for god's sake).
Perhaps you could explain just how my position on US policy equates to
supporting terrorist organisations.
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 8:49 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Anarchism and Leftism
You haven't touched a sore spot. You have presented such bizarre and
inaccurate and inappropriate comments that I wonder if you are serious and
suspect not. You can also stand by a pile of dung with similar results.
Facts, Simon, facts. Do you have any? I thought not.
You seem ignorant of the history of the region you attempt to discuss. Israel
signed a treaty with Lebanon which required the removal of any
extra-governmental organizations from Israel's border. Lebanon signed the
treaty. Israel returned home. Lebanon did not keep the treaty and allowed
Hezbollah to stay on Israel's border. Israel did nothing until their border
was breached.
You seem ignorant of the nature of Hizbollah. I have several books I could
recommend. Hizbollah and Hezbollah and Hamas are all terrorist organizations
committed to the eradication, elimination, destruction of Israel. They are not
peaceful organizations. They deny Israel's right to exist. And yet you feel a
need to examine Israel's motives; but then so does every good Islamist. As the
British historian David Selbourne has so eloquently written in The Losing
Battle with Islam, it is a common ploy with the Islamists to attack someone and
then blame the attacked for the attack. That is precisely what was done in the
case of the Hizbollah/Hamas attack on Israel.
You distrust Israel, the only Liberal Democracy in the region and give the
benefit of doubt to a terrorist organization. Do I have that right? I thought
so.
You think Israel is making too big a deal of the holocaust. So do the
Islamists. Anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe. Lots of Europeans have had
enough of Israel and the Jews. As for me, I have had enough of Islamism,
enough of Militant Islamism. It should be smashed wherever we find it.
Furthermore we should support any Liberal Democracy that wants our help.
Islamism proposes a totalitarian system of government. There will be no
freedom in one of their governments anything like we enjoy in our Liberal
Democratic governments. Anyone who for any reason supports a Militant Islamic
force, whether Hizbollah, Hamas, or Iran is blind to their threat. Such a
person needs to study the Islamist ideology. He needs to read the teachings of
Al Banna, Qutb, Maududi, and Khomeini. He needs to recognize that his Leftist
paradigm isn't going to make these organizations into Marxist-type revolutions.
He needs to read the resolves and intentions of the various terrorist
organizations and he needs to seriously consider that what he does when he
supports such organizations is in essence self-destructive.
If by scorn you mean my warning that you are supporting an ideology that
considers the freedom you enjoy anathema to it, consider scorn to have been
heaped.
Lawrence
Other related posts:
