[geocentrism] Re: meditations on Scripture
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "geocentrism list" <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:13:09 +1000
Peter I am not knocking endorphins in prayer. God gave us endorphins to use
and get pleasure/consolation from.. Thats why Paul said "take a little wine
for your ills.." alcohol triggers endorphins. So does meditation , which
happens in prayer or when reading Scripture.
Some of the saints in their stories, report of this feeling , calling it
consolation in Prayer. And then at times they complain of the opposite, no
consolation, but adverse feelings of the devil taunting them. Or just no
feeling at all.. the point I'm making is that prayer is perseverance whether
it feels good or not. But feelings is no proof of God being present or in some
way answering. He is always present and listening ..
You can bet the way out serpent kissing charismatics, pagan hindu fakirs,
Muslim extremists or Buddist monks all are expert in feeling the spirit. They
can bring it on.. To us ordinary mortals it just happens ... (I'm ignoring
the happy hour) And most importantly, these endorphins are only triggers, the
experience varies according to what you are doing.. Drinking, sex, music, or
reading Scripture or praying.. We call the last three higher spiritual levels,
but they are achieved or felt because of a chemical.. to say that God
personally is involved, is wishful thinking..
In times of stress, people pray asking for relief.. Like a National prayer for
rain during drought, or even personal needs. When it finally does rain, which
of course it will eventually, they say their prayers were answered. Of course
they were, but not because of any personal intervention by God for them. It was
nature.. And so are the private spiritual experiences of all those who pray to
any sort of god... a natural chemically triggered experience.
Biblically, He makes His presence quite clear. He confirms being there by
being accompanied by supernatural phenomena.. The roaring winds, the doves,
lighted aura's.. etc.. Some of the saints went into estascies, levitating for
hours on end. Yet even confronted with these, we are warned that Devils can be
involved behind it.. To follow Jesus faithfully, we do not need to feel
anything. " keep my commandments..."
Scripture tells us to test the spirit.. You and I differ in only one major
point. It is how we do that test. I ask myself does it conform to what I call
the dogmatic teaching of the Church (which are fixed in granite) or does it
contradict these teachings. In normal times I could rely on the Church
authorities to make the judgement. Today I can't, and thats where reason has to
assert itself as I refer to the constant past plus Scripture, and compare.
You have to rely on your own personal reasoning and judgement, which is based
on scripture yes, plus the influence of whatever self proclaimed preacher
taught you, or maybe just another book (so many abound) that you read.
Finally we are all infected by our environment past and present, but mostly the
past. And Peter, this is not protestant bashing... I have been through this
subject on the traditional Catholic list as well.. In fact I got chastised
exactly for the same reason as Neville chastised me here. I'm not the one to
discourage the simple faith, no way, they will take what they can take. A full
bucket and a full thimble are both full! But if the person has intelligence
and reason, to know the truth, this in no way weakens faith. It strengthens it.
A 90% full 1000gallon tank, Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: PETER CHARLTON
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:40 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: meditations on Scripture
Whilst said theory on endorpins might seem logical, can I clarify that I
first felt the Holy Spirit, not when I was in some state of vast excitement,
but when I had started to read the Bible from beginning to end, I had not
experienced anything, untill one eveining, whilst I was in the middle of the
most boring and dull book the Bible contatins, the book of Numbers.
Suddenly, for no reason, I felt as if I had been injected with morpine or
something.
My theory is that God saw how determined I was to find him when he saw me
reading numbers, and chose that moment to let himself be found.
Now regarding endorpins, belive me I have experienced these, Ive experienced
other forms of intense pleasure, near death experiences on my Motorcycle, bad
accidents, various forms of intense life in the Royal Navy, and some very
enjoyable rock concerts.
The Holy Spirit feels nothing like anything I had ever experienced in my life
before, or since exept in a religious capacity.
Sometimes my prayers are of the form of "Please be gratous to me, an unworthy
sinner", that is, feeling I had let God down badly and feeling lost and
unworthy, hardly the circumstances that would produce endorphins, but certainly
the times when God could show he cared for me and still Loved me.
Getting the Holy Spirit feels like God is hugging you from the inside and
brings forth the very feelings the Bible says are the fruits of the Spirit.
Pete Charlton
----- Original Message -----
From: Neville Jones
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:37 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: meditations on Scripture
Philip,
I thought you would encourage someone who gets a distinct feeling that God
is listening to him when he prays, rather than trying to explain it away with
endorphins? This is similar to the Moon going around "set in the firmament"
(i.e., rotation of the firmament, not the Moon), which you did not seem to side
with when Allen was championing that (Biblical) position.
You do surprise me sometimes.
Neville
www.realityreviewed.com
-----Original Message-----
From: pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 09:07:39 +1000
Yes I can agree in part with what you said Peter. with additions shown
in brown. Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: PETER CHARLTON
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 3:13 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: meditations on Scripture
Dont forget that there are other scriptures that give an indication as
well, I cannot remember where they are but there is one that says to not
repetitivlt repeat a prayer as the nations do, Buddist mantras come to mind. I
could find such Scripture. But that supports my contention that Bible alone is
insufficient.. Such contradictions appear many times.
There is also the parable Jesus gave of the man who wanted a loaf of
bread from a man who was in bed and didnt want to get up, in the end the man
did get up just so he could get some peace.
I find when I pray the feeling of Gods Spirit in me, thats when I feel
he must be listening. As comforting as that feels, feelings are not a proof of
the indwelling of the Spirit of God, any more than the indwelling of The evil
one., who can appear as an angel of light. If feeling good was the criteria,
then all must get to Heaven. In the face of the thousands of martyrs against
the gods of imperial Rome, such a philosophy makes a mockery of God's justice.
Physiologically, we know that emotion triggers internal drug
release..... endorphins are naturally produced by a wide range of activities
like meditation, deep breathing, ribald laughter, eating spicy food, or
receiving acupuncture treatments or chiropractic adjustments. Fewer still know
that endorphins are actually good for health, and can play a role in helping
drug and alcohol abusers overcome their addiction.
Because they are naturally produced by the body, endorphins are
possibly the best (and most legal way) to achieve a natural high. Chemically
speaking, endorphins are polypeptides, which able to bind to the
neuro-receptors in the brain to give relief from pain. They are one reason why
soldiers wounded in battle can continue to fight or have the strength to save
someone else; it also accounts for the so called runner's high, or why some
people are drawn to dangerous activities like car racing, sky diving and bungee
jumping.
I attach an interesting info sheet from files about endorphins for the
interested..Philip.
Pete Charlton
----- Original Message -----
From: philip madsen
To: geocentrism list
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 6:06 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] meditations on Scripture
The Lords Prayer .
One of the things I worry about concerns the would be christians of
this world, and in particular those whom I know personally, who claim
Scripture alone can save.
I know they insist that this means calling on the name of Jesus, and
the need to believe in Him and all that he taught. I do not argue at all
against that.
My concern is that this is not enough. It ignores the need of a set
discipline. So long as any person can mould his life by self discipline
accorting to his own wits as interpreted by scripture, he can never be certain
that he is acting under the guidance of the Paraclete. No matter how much he
FEELS this to be true. There are much too many contradictions among the
millions who do this. And one thing is certain. God does not contradict
Himself, but is unchanged and unchangeable forever.
I used the words "set discipline" . Above all that God teaches in
scripture, is the need of obedience. A set rule or a set of rules that are
without any error. Can that ever happen among men without an authoritarian
Church? The history of Christianity in all its variety seems to say No! Jesus
demands that all of His flock, (that means sheep) shall be under one shepherd..
Now the Shepherd controls his sheep. He disciplines them. The Bible cannot do
that, when it is left to me or you to chose our own discipline or punishment.
The Bible, as marvellous as it is, it is this very marvelousness that
makes it unable to be the shepherd.. I have already shown that there is no way
of discerning the Spirit in the words of the book, with any certainty for any
person, based upon his personal feelings. The simple experience of the
contradictions such creates is ample evidence of that. So much is said, but
yet so much is left unsaid, and left to the imagination. A Catholic will see it
as a Catholic, a protestant as a Protestant, a born again believer as the way
his favourite preacher tells it, or the book he wrote. The Holy Spirit has very
little chance of getting in there, save a direct miraculous interference from
God. And God does not do that without ample real supernatural evidence.. It is
not His way to be indistinguishable from the devil.
It was the Lords prayer which prompted this email. I found the DR
Mathew version, which is not worded like the standard prayer Christians
recite, from the other gospels, but it suffices for my case. This is the only
prayer the Bible discipline demands. It figures in almost every ritual of the
orthodox Universal Church of Jesus Christ, as well as many sects. Yet how many
who are Bible only believers repeat this prayer? Jesus said, 9 Thus therefore
shall you pray: He commands it. A discipline.. He speaks against friendly
conversations, as being prayers. In the agony of the Garden He says Pray often,
less the Devil (temptation) get in .
Thus we have a case for repetition as being a means of keeping you
focussed on God, and the Devil out. Can we do any better than repeating the
only prayer He commended? I think there is a better way, but who can stand it.
We could recite Scripture. The Psalms have historically kept many monks and
priests on their knees for hours.. Not my cup of tea. Not for most modernists
used as we are to the easy life. But simple folk were given, or they took, the
Rosary, straight from Scripture, easily remembered, no reading ability
required.. The Lords prayer, and the Angelic salutation, repeated often, whilst
meditating on the complete Scriptual life of Jesus.
I can say no more than leave the words from Mathew, underlining the
key words which prompted this message, and a short conclusion following.
7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they
think that in their much speaking they may be heard. 8 Be not you therefore
like to them for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask
him.
9 Thus therefore shall you pray:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom
come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our
supersubstantial bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our
debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.
14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father
will forgive you also your offences. 15 But if you will not forgive men,
neither will your Father forgive you your offences.
Here we have Jesus actually telling you how to be saved. You have to
ask the Father "forgive us our debts" . It seems that people take a dangerous
option, presuming on Gods Mercy, that they are automatically saved by
prescribing to their own particular interpretation of the words of God. A very
dangerous option indeed.
I prefer submission! Prostrate on the ground. Forgive me Oh Lord, I
am a misarable sinner!. If I am wrong, it is because I am ignorant, and if I am
right, it is not because I am clever, but because of your grace.
Philip.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free 3D Earth Screensaver
Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at www.inbox.com/earth
Other related posts:
