Dear Dan,
I usually find your contributions thought-provoking, logical, and easy to
follow, but I am afraid I don't understand this one. I have read it several
times. I just cannot follow your train of thought, how the paragraphs are
related to one another and how you fit our human "machine" dimension (not
sure what your definition is) into Hellinger's three forms of "conscience".
You particularly lose me in the two passages I quote below.
"The idea of the body as a machine is a replacement for the dimension of
ancestors. It began with the emergence of a lineage of Kings in Egypt,
Patriarchs in Judaism, a Holy Trinity in Christianity and an Emperor
(followed by Pope) in Rome. This idea was furthered advanced with the
emergence of science in 17th century Europe."
"Working from Hellinger’s three dimensions or our own variations, we tend to
not include or overlook the consciousness of the machine".
Any clarifications you can offer would be much appreciated!
Anne Becker
Cincinnati
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Gregor P <gregor2012@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
**
Dear all,
This is my first contribution to this forum, but I felt the need to throw
in my 5 cents' worth ....
Dan - I read your email with great interest and the description of the
three levels of consciousness provides a timely summary of the system we
move in. Also, the information about the Zulus was new to me, thank you!
I struggle a bit with the term "machine" and wonder whether "organism" or
"biological body" might capture the essence as well? This could open up
exploration in the area of illness (i.e. how the body relates to the other
three forms of consciousness). Or do you really mean it in the sense of the
mechanistic, functioning, cold (?) metal entities (my apologies if I
over-simplify)? I almost wrote soul-less there, but then Michael's
description of the consciousness of inanimate objects came to mind.
Michael - your description of computer networks as "an embodiment of the
over-rational, emotion-ignoring, body-denying confusions of their makers."
really struck a chord with me. Thank you for sharing that insight.
Rosalba and - I too struggle with the idea of where humanity's need to
explore is taking us. Whilst giving us wonderful tools such as
constellations, it also has the capacity to turns us into Frankensteins in
our need to run away and avoid facing and accepting our circumstances. I
guess it comes back to the question of what are good areas for us to
"control" or improve. For example, being overweight vs. being unable to
reproduce.
Gregor
On 04/09/2012, at 7:45 AM, Michael Reddy <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi All,what you mean by the word. So far, no machines in existence can forage,
Whether or not we can call the body a "machine" depends an awful lot on
survive, reproduce themselves, and adapt as a species (as type of machine,
in this case) to changing conditions of their environment. They do not
manage and coordinate with anything like the complexity and coherence of
living organisms their needs for ongoing power supply ("food" for
organisms), their activity goals, internal homeostasis, social bonding and
so on.
and we can in some still crude ways manipulate and interchange some of
Without getting too technical, it would seem that the body has parts,
those parts, but whether artificial devices will cross the line to anything
like human organisms is still in question.
consciousness for anything, including machines. The world is made primarily
For my part, coming from shamanic animism, I can talk about levels of
of consciousness. But machine consciousness is not that much different
perhaps from the consciousness of all inanimate beings. So this is an
extended sense of the term "consciousness" that most people don't use.
number and complexity of levels of organization that manifest in beings.
I think gradations of consciousness in this larger sense go up with the
Mineral (stone people to the Native Americans), vegetative (plant people,
similarly), and animal (crawlers, flyers, swimmers, and walkers) all
involve more layers of these levels. And humans add another one or two at
least.
and I'm close to saying they are a strange and not entirely wholesome
Computer networks and the Internet are certainly becoming more complex,
hybrid of mineral consciousness and the largely intellectual aspects of
human consciousness. They are an embodiment of the over-rational,
emotion-ignoring, body-denying confusions of their makers.
about clearly.
Just some thoughts to consider in an area where things are hard to talk
that
Best,
Michael
On Sep 3, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Dan Booth Cohen, PhD wrote:
Dear Irene and All -
I feel you have touched on an essential aspect to human consciousness
thewe have largely overlooked or excluded as Constellation facilitators.
On the opening page of Love�s Hidden Symmetry, Bert Hellinger describes
three dimensions of conscience: personal, systemic, and Conscience of
theGreater Whole. Since then, he has refined these terms and now refers to
isthree dimensions as personal, soul and spirit. Others, following in his
footsteps, have found different language. For example, Thomas Bryson has
offered this:
�Humans all have three aspects - the individual, the systemic and what
ocean.beyond, similar to the metaphor of a drop of water, the wave and the
consciousnessThe drop and the wave have no independent existence.�
I refrain from explaining Constellations in terms of conscience for
practical reasons. Sometimes, I call these three dimensions of
consciousness: personal, the inherited mind of ancestors, and
Ibeyond the human scale of time. Here is a link to a YouTube video where
&feature=plcp.described them in slightly different terms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM&feature=plcp>
course in
I recently led a training exercise on these concepts at a training
S�o Paulo, Brazil, where it became clear that there is another dimension
socialthat we as Constellators omit, exclude or deny.
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and
whetherover-layers, but the body is a machine."
The idea of the body as a machine is a replacement for the dimension of
ancestors. It began with the emergence of a lineage of Kings in Egypt,
Patriarchs in Judaism, a Holy Trinity in Christianity and an Emperor
(followed by Pope) in Rome. This idea was furthered advanced with the
emergence of science in 17th century Europe. The second dimension �
can bewe call it systemic conscience, systemic or the inherited mind of the
ancestors � cannot be precisely observed, measured or replicated. It
place,described phenomenologically, but not quantified objectively. In its
weakensis a non-human consciousness. Irene refers to it accurately, �This
othersall ethical and moral parameters enabling science and unscrupulous
thesuch as governments to produce an army of mindless worker, fighters,
breeding machines...the list goes on. That is what scares me!�
When Bert Hellinger lived with the Zulus of South Africa, he was among
andoldest continuous human culture in world history. See:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/. The Zulus came to Southern
Africa at the origin of the species. They never moved or migrated. They
never co-mingled or were invaded until the Dutch and English settlers
arrived. For them, the Ancestors are the central regulator of life. In
introducing the concepts of Orders of Love, exclusion of an ancestor,
tend tosystemic entanglement, Hellinger is reintroducing a way of experiencing
human existence that is far removed from the existentialism of his
philosophical mentor Martin Heidegger.
Working from Hellinger�s three dimensions or our own variations, we
thenot include or overlook the consciousness of the machine. However, for
regulator ofvast majority of people in our communities it is their central
broughtlife, either as religious beliefs or technological devices.
http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/stephen-shaheen-headlight
The question of who is the mother of a child conceived in a dish and
forto gestation in a machine brings this omission into sharp focus. Irene
suggests the soul of the child will choose to integrate into the body.
Barbara is grateful she won�t be alive to witness it.
I am just beginning to explore this. The next time I do a group exercise
about the 3 dimensions of consciousness, I will include representatives
dontthe consciousness of machines.
Dan
Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
President
Systemic Constellations Conferences and Education
www.USConstellations.com
www.HiddenSolution.com
781-718-7158
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Irene Davey
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 6:56 PM
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Im also a grandmother and mother (and a fallen Catholic) but really I
believesee anything too amiss with this concept. There are advantages and
disadvantages as there are with any new thought/product/procedure. I
body ,the soul would choose or not choose to integrate with that particular
life?maybe the soul was a scientist or an aborted fetus in their previous
socialNow having stated those quick thoughts I will paste a comment from that
article that really disturbs me:
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and
parametersover-layers, but the body is a machine."
This is such a throwaway line that weakens all ethical and moral
anenabling science and unscrupulous others such as governments to produce
systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxxarmy of mindless worker, fighters, breeding machines...the list goes on.
That is what scares me!
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: <mailto:systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx>
that
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 07:09:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Thank you, Barbara for the sanity check--I think the Catholic Church has
rejected all these types of reproductive technologies on the premise
Interpreterchildren have the right to be created in the natural embrace of their
parents.
A wise thought, from an imperfect institution maybe?
Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice
Federally Certified Spanish Interpreter and Certified Medical
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a><mailto:Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
3036640852
Cell 7208389509
On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:30 AM, Barbara Morgan <
<mailto:theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx> theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
What happens to the human soul when we try to control nature in this
way or rather what has already happened to the souls of those doing
this research and those who would be willing to use it? Anything
rather than deal with the pain of what is.
Horrifying and I'm glad I won't be alive to witness it. Where's the
thought for the child in all this?
Yes, an emotional response. As a mother and grandmother, it can't be
anything else for me.
Barbara
On 18 August 2012 20:14, Andrew Watson <<mailto:andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx> andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
**
This is a really interesting article on the future of reproduction:
apparently, it will be possible to conceive, gestate, and give birth
all outside a human being. It might even be possible to genetically
alter a woman's cells to create sperm with her DNA -- so she could
theoretically (and literally) be mother and "father" to her child.
The opposite could be possible with men....and apparently, it might
even be possible to have men producing milk.
I guess, in the final analysis, life will have life, however that
life comes into being......
Here's the link:
<
forum.http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a
arathi-prasad
Hopefully this will spark yet another enriching discussion on this
Enjoy!
Andy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner Editor of The
Knowing Field International Constellations Journal
<http://www.theknowingfield.com> www.theknowingfield.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/
Individual Email | Traditional
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/join>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<mailto:ConstellationTalk-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michael Reddy, PhD, CPC, ELI-MP
michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.reddyworks.com
Holistic Health & Happiness
DIAL IN TO OUR FREE, WEEKLY, QUESTION & ANSWER
TELECONFERENCE--THE CONSTELLATION CALL
Q&A on Family Constellations and Coaching
Tuesdays 8-8:45 PM EST
(530) 216 4363 PIN 481775#
What is The Constellation Call?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
