Thank you so much for explaining this more fully, Dan! Now I do understand
and will have lots to think about. I found your comments meaningful as
well, Kenn.
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Ellen Pillard <epillard@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
**
Kenn, I absolutely agree with your observation about healing the soul with
either Constellation work and Shamanism.
On technology. An academic colleague of mine whose expertise is building
smart computers was asked if they would ever be able to build a computer as
smart as as the human brain. His answer was, "No, because computers don't
ever experience life." Our body does experience and therefore we are
smarter that any smart computer.
________________________________
From: Kenn Day <enki@xxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] "I mean, we are machines, after all. We
have all these ethical and social over-layers, but the body is a machine."
Greetings Dan and other SCW Colleagues,
It sounds to me that what is being addressed here is something that I
started calling the Invisible Wound many years ago, to describe the
breakdown of the soul-level connections between the individual and their
matrix of ancestors, family, spirit, earth and the numinous. It doesn't
seem to be much of a stretch to say that the hunger for these missing
pieces of our soul matrix is what leads to so many addictive behaviors
today.
Personally I view this as arising from the dissolution of tribal structure
and culture, and the interruption of the tendency of souls to be reborn
within the tribe or family. This seems to predate the move toward more
technological advances, and probably even helped to move us toward these
advances.
Where the soul is missing pieces, the ego hungers. Where the ego hungers,
it will find something to feed on. That something will not feed the soul,
and so it will continue to hunger. The only way to address that hunger is
at the soul level. Constellation work and Shamanism are the only means I've
found to do this.
Your thoughts?
namaste,
Kenn
On Sep 3, 2012, at 11:39 PM, Dan Booth Cohen, PhD wrote:
Hello Everyone –out this aspect of consciousness could have been stated more clearly and
I appreciate the feedback and recognize that my first attempt to tease
perhaps took me out of my depth.
consciousness of machines, I am not suggesting that the machines themselves
The first item that needs clarifying is when I speak of the
have consciousness (apart from being Stone People in shaman terms). I’m not
talking about HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey. Rather, that the
consciousness of the ancestors has been eradicated by techo-scientific
culture and in its place we moderns have been infiltrated with a kind of
artificial, manufactured consciousness that is mass produced and implanted
inside us.
the last 100 years, but the origins date to beginning of civilization and
Second, this trend has accelerated with the explosion of technology in
the dispossession of the ancestors. In pre-civilization, every human has
ancestors the same as every other human. If a father is a father and a
mother is a mother, then every child is the child of a mother and a father.
With the Egyptians, the son of a King is a King and the son of a slave is
slave. Instead of the primary access to the Divine coming through the
ancestors, it shifts to Priests and Kings who claim special access to the
ear and mouth of God. Science overthrew the theology of the priests, but
not the structure that uneducated people need educated experts to gain
access to “what is beyond.” Science replaced God with “Laws of Nature” or
“Laws of Physics” and revamped the institutions of priestly castes.
destruction of Germany, which in its worship of mechanization and class
As a missionary to the Zulus, Hellinger came from the ravaged,
division had gone as far as constructing death factories, to one of the
last remaining peoples whose traditions of ancestor reverence remain
untouched and intact. It was a case of the hunter being capture by the
game, leading to his leaving the priesthood. Today’s facilitators gravitate
to other pockets of culture where ancestor reverence and pre-civilized
knowledge remains. These can be found within Native Americans, Irish,
Maori, Chinese, and shamanic traditions among many others.
“what is beyond” through the field of the ancestors. I don’t emphasize
In my practice, the healing power of Constellations comes from accessing
conscience, or Orders or entanglements, as much as grandparents,
great-grandparents and older, more distant ancestors. Place them in the
field of Constellations and clients feel a great weight of burden lifted
and a great source of strength re-established. The positive effect is
potent and lasting.
inclusion and emphasis on ancestors is to the exclusion of the
What I noticed and wanted to explore with the CT community, is that my
consciousness that eliminated and replaced it. Maybe “consciousness of
machines” is confusing and badly phrased. Here’s is a Constellation I
dreamed up, but have not yet attempted. Hopefully, it will convey the idea
more clearly.
center of the circle and tune into the field of Prozac. Ask her to name
Start with a single representative for Prozac. Have her stand in the
what is present in the field. She says, “Brain.” A person who feels called
to stand as brain comes into the field and finds her place. “Brain” names
what is present, “Depression.” Depression stands up and enters the field.
And so on…. We could have 20 or 30 representatives after some time. The
drug company, the chemicals in Prozac, the trauma of the client, the
prescribing physician, the advertising agency, the health insurance
provider, the client’s joy, the client’s consciousness on meds and another
off-meds. And so on…
changes the consciousness of the person taking it. This client has the 3
In this Constellation, Prozac is a machine. When it enters the brain it
levels of consciousness we described and now also another level, one
created artificially by industry and its distribution systems. You could
replace Prozac with countless other machines. What I am suggesting is that
for a person ingesting Prozac – for all us actually – there is another
dimension of consciousness imbedded in us by the machines. We are all
warped and improved and changed by these influences. What I am proposing is
to use Constellations to explore how we are warped and improved and
changed.
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of anne becker
Dan
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 10:05 PMhave all these ethical and social over-layers, but the body is a machine."
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] "I mean, we are machines, after all. We
several
Dear Dan,
I usually find your contributions thought-provoking, logical, and easy to
follow, but I am afraid I don't understand this one. I have read it
times. I just cannot follow your train of thought, how the paragraphs are"conscience".
related to one another and how you fit our human "machine" dimension (not
sure what your definition is) into Hellinger's three forms of
You particularly lose me in the two passages I quote below.tend to
"The idea of the body as a machine is a replacement for the dimension of
ancestors. It began with the emergence of a lineage of Kings in Egypt,
Patriarchs in Judaism, a Holy Trinity in Christianity and an Emperor
(followed by Pope) in Rome. This idea was furthered advanced with the
emergence of science in 17th century Europe."
"Working from Hellinger’s three dimensions or our own variations, we
not include or overlook the consciousness of the machine".gregor2012%40rocketmail.com> > wrote:
Any clarifications you can offer would be much appreciated!
Anne Becker
Cincinnati
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Gregor P <gregor2012@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:
throw
**
Dear all,
This is my first contribution to this forum, but I felt the need to
orin my 5 cents' worth ....
Dan - I read your email with great interest and the description of the
three levels of consciousness provides a timely summary of the system we
move in. Also, the information about the Zulus was new to me, thank you!
I struggle a bit with the term "machine" and wonder whether "organism"
other"biological body" might capture the essence as well? This could open up
exploration in the area of illness (i.e. how the body relates to the
thethree forms of consciousness). Or do you really mean it in the sense of
makers."mechanistic, functioning, cold (?) metal entities (my apologies if I
over-simplify)? I almost wrote soul-less there, but then Michael's
description of the consciousness of inanimate objects came to mind.
Michael - your description of computer networks as "an embodiment of the
over-rational, emotion-ignoring, body-denying confusions of their
inreally struck a chord with me. Thank you for sharing that insight.
Rosalba and - I too struggle with the idea of where humanity's need to
explore is taking us. Whilst giving us wonderful tools such as
constellations, it also has the capacity to turns us into Frankensteins
michael%40reddyworks.com> > wrote:our need to run away and avoid facing and accepting our circumstances. I
guess it comes back to the question of what are good areas for us to
"control" or improve. For example, being overweight vs. being unable to
reproduce.
Gregor
On 04/09/2012, at 7:45 AM, Michael Reddy <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:
machine,
Hi All,what you mean by the word. So far, no machines in existence can forage,
Whether or not we can call the body a "machine" depends an awful lot on
survive, reproduce themselves, and adapt as a species (as type of
andin this case) to changing conditions of their environment. They do not
manage and coordinate with anything like the complexity and coherence of
living organisms their needs for ongoing power supply ("food" for
organisms), their activity goals, internal homeostasis, social bonding
anythingso on.
and we can in some still crude ways manipulate and interchange some of
Without getting too technical, it would seem that the body has parts,
those parts, but whether artificial devices will cross the line to
primarilylike human organisms is still in question.
consciousness for anything, including machines. The world is made
For my part, coming from shamanic animism, I can talk about levels of
people,of consciousness. But machine consciousness is not that much different
perhaps from the consciousness of all inanimate beings. So this is an
extended sense of the term "consciousness" that most people don't use.
number and complexity of levels of organization that manifest in beings.
I think gradations of consciousness in this larger sense go up with the
Mineral (stone people to the Native Americans), vegetative (plant
atsimilarly), and animal (crawlers, flyers, swimmers, and walkers) all
involve more layers of these levels. And humans add another one or two
describesleast.
and I'm close to saying they are a strange and not entirely wholesome
Computer networks and the Internet are certainly becoming more complex,
hybrid of mineral consciousness and the largely intellectual aspects of
human consciousness. They are an embodiment of the over-rational,
emotion-ignoring, body-denying confusions of their makers.
about clearly.
Just some thoughts to consider in an area where things are hard to talk
that
Best,
Michael
On Sep 3, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Dan Booth Cohen, PhD wrote:
Dear Irene and All -
I feel you have touched on an essential aspect to human consciousness
we have largely overlooked or excluded as Constellation facilitators.
On the opening page of Love�s Hidden Symmetry, Bert Hellinger
tothethree dimensions of conscience: personal, systemic, and Conscience of
Greater Whole. Since then, he has refined these terms and now refers
histhe
three dimensions as personal, soul and spirit. Others, following in
hasfootsteps, have found different language. For example, Thomas Bryson
whereisoffered this:
�Humans all have three aspects - the individual, the systemic and what
ocean.beyond, similar to the metaphor of a drop of water, the wave and the
consciousnessThe drop and the wave have no independent existence.�
I refrain from explaining Constellations in terms of conscience for
practical reasons. Sometimes, I call these three dimensions of
consciousness: personal, the inherited mind of ancestors, and
beyond the human scale of time. Here is a link to a YouTube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM&feature=plcp> &feature=plcp>I
described them in slightly different terms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM ;<
dimension&feature=plcp.
course in
I recently led a training exercise on these concepts at a training
S�o Paulo, Brazil, where it became clear that there is another
of
socialthat we as Constellators omit, exclude or deny.
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and
over-layers, but the body is a machine."
The idea of the body as a machine is a replacement for the dimension
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/> The Zulus came to Southernwhetherancestors. It began with the emergence of a lineage of Kings in Egypt,
Patriarchs in Judaism, a Holy Trinity in Christianity and an Emperor
(followed by Pope) in Rome. This idea was furthered advanced with the
emergence of science in 17th century Europe. The second dimension �
can bewe call it systemic conscience, systemic or the inherited mind of the
ancestors � cannot be precisely observed, measured or replicated. It
place,described phenomenologically, but not quantified objectively. In its
weakensis a non-human consciousness. Irene refers to it accurately, �This
othersall ethical and moral parameters enabling science and unscrupulous
thesuch as governments to produce an army of mindless worker, fighters,
breeding machines...the list goes on. That is what scares me!�
When Bert Hellinger lived with the Zulus of South Africa, he was among
oldest continuous human culture in world history. See:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/. ;<
TheyAfrica at the origin of the species. They never moved or migrated.
experiencingandnever co-mingled or were invaded until the Dutch and English settlers
arrived. For them, the Ancestors are the central regulator of life. In
introducing the concepts of Orders of Love, exclusion of an ancestor,
systemic entanglement, Hellinger is reintroducing a way of
exercisetend tohuman existence that is far removed from the existentialism of his
philosophical mentor Martin Heidegger.
Working from Hellinger�s three dimensions or our own variations, we
thenot include or overlook the consciousness of the machine. However, for
regulator ofvast majority of people in our communities it is their central
broughtlife, either as religious beliefs or technological devices.
http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/stephen-shaheen-headlight
The question of who is the mother of a child conceived in a dish and
to gestation in a machine brings this omission into sharp focus. Irene
suggests the soul of the child will choose to integrate into the body.
Barbara is grateful she won�t be alive to witness it.
I am just beginning to explore this. The next time I do a group
representativesabout the 3 dimensions of consciousness, I will include
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>for
the consciousness of machines.
Dan
Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
President
Systemic Constellations Conferences and Education
www.USConstellations.com
www.HiddenSolution.com
781-718-7158
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Irene Davey[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:
constellationtalk%40yahoogroups.com>Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 6:56 PM
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
thatdontSubject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Im also a grandmother and mother (and a fallen Catholic) but really I
believesee anything too amiss with this concept. There are advantages and
disadvantages as there are with any new thought/product/procedure. I
body ,the soul would choose or not choose to integrate with that particular
life?maybe the soul was a scientist or an aborted fetus in their previous
Now having stated those quick thoughts I will paste a comment from
producesocialarticle that really disturbs me:
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and
parametersover-layers, but the body is a machine."
This is such a throwaway line that weakens all ethical and moral
enabling science and unscrupulous others such as governments to
on.an
army of mindless worker, fighters, breeding machines...the list goes
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> >That is what scares me!
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
systemic.solutions%40gmail.com> >
From: <mailto:systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:
hassystemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:systemic.solutions%40gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 07:09:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Thank you, Barbara for the sanity check--I think the Catholic Church
Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com> >thatrejected all these types of reproductive technologies on the premise
Interpreterchildren have the right to be created in the natural embrace of their
parents.
A wise thought, from an imperfect institution maybe?
Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice
Federally Certified Spanish Interpreter and Certified Medical
<mailto:Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:
Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com>Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
Thetheknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:theknowingfield%40gmail.com> > wrote:
3036640852
Cell 7208389509
On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:30 AM, Barbara Morgan <
<mailto:theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:theknowingfield%40gmail.com>
andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:andrew.e.watson%40gmail.com> > wrote:
What happens to the human soul when we try to control nature in this
way or rather what has already happened to the souls of those doing
this research and those who would be willing to use it? Anything
rather than deal with the pain of what is.
Horrifying and I'm glad I won't be alive to witness it. Where's the
thought for the child in all this?
Yes, an emotional response. As a mother and grandmother, it can't be
anything else for me.
Barbara
On 18 August 2012 20:14, Andrew Watson <<mailto:andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:andrew.e.watson%40gmail.com>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a>
**
This is a really interesting article on the future of reproduction:
apparently, it will be possible to conceive, gestate, and give birth
all outside a human being. It might even be possible to genetically
alter a woman's cells to create sperm with her DNA -- so she could
theoretically (and literally) be mother and "father" to her child.
The opposite could be possible with men....and apparently, it might
even be possible to have men producing milk.
I guess, in the final analysis, life will have life, however that
life comes into being......
Here's the link:
<
forum.http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a
arathi-prasad
Hopefully this will spark yet another enriching discussion on this
Enjoy!
Andy
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--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner Editor of
ConstellationTalk-digest%40yahoogroups.com> >
Knowing Field International Constellations Journal
<http://www.theknowingfield.com> www.theknowingfield.com
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