Hi All,
Whether or not we can call the body a "machine" depends an awful lot on what
you mean by the word. So far, no machines in existence can forage, survive,
reproduce themselves, and adapt as a species (as type of machine, in this case)
to changing conditions of their environment. They do not manage and coordinate
with anything like the complexity and coherence of living organisms their needs
for ongoing power supply ("food" for organisms), their activity goals, internal
homeostasis, social bonding and so on.
Without getting too technical, it would seem that the body has parts, and we
can in some still crude ways manipulate and interchange some of those parts,
but whether artificial devices will cross the line to anything like human
organisms is still in question.
For my part, coming from shamanic animism, I can talk about levels of
consciousness for anything, including machines. The world is made primarily of
consciousness. But machine consciousness is not that much different perhaps
from the consciousness of all inanimate beings. So this is an extended sense
of the term "consciousness" that most people don't use.
I think gradations of consciousness in this larger sense go up with the number
and complexity of levels of organization that manifest in beings. Mineral
(stone people to the Native Americans), vegetative (plant people, similarly),
and animal (crawlers, flyers, swimmers, and walkers) all involve more layers of
these levels. And humans add another one or two at least.
Computer networks and the Internet are certainly becoming more complex, and I'm
close to saying they are a strange and not entirely wholesome hybrid of mineral
consciousness and the largely intellectual aspects of human consciousness.
They are an embodiment of the over-rational, emotion-ignoring, body-denying
confusions of their makers.
Just some thoughts to consider in an area where things are hard to talk about
clearly.
Best,
Michael
On Sep 3, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Dan Booth Cohen, PhD wrote:
Dear Irene and All -
I feel you have touched on an essential aspect to human consciousness that
we have largely overlooked or excluded as Constellation facilitators.
On the opening page of Loves Hidden Symmetry, Bert Hellinger describes
three dimensions of conscience: personal, systemic, and Conscience of the
Greater Whole. Since then, he has refined these terms and now refers to the
three dimensions as personal, soul and spirit. Others, following in his
footsteps, have found different language. For example, Thomas Bryson has
offered this:
Humans all have three aspects - the individual, the systemic and what is
beyond, similar to the metaphor of a drop of water, the wave and the ocean.
The drop and the wave have no independent existence.
I refrain from explaining Constellations in terms of conscience for
practical reasons. Sometimes, I call these three dimensions of
consciousness: personal, the inherited mind of ancestors, and consciousness
beyond the human scale of time. Here is a link to a YouTube video where I
described them in slightly different terms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM&feature=plcp> &feature=plcp.
I recently led a training exercise on these concepts at a training course in
São Paulo, Brazil, where it became clear that there is another dimension
that we as Constellators omit, exclude or deny.
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and social
over-layers, but the body is a machine."
The idea of the body as a machine is a replacement for the dimension of
ancestors. It began with the emergence of a lineage of Kings in Egypt,
Patriarchs in Judaism, a Holy Trinity in Christianity and an Emperor
(followed by Pope) in Rome. This idea was furthered advanced with the
emergence of science in 17th century Europe. The second dimension whether
we call it systemic conscience, systemic or the inherited mind of the
ancestors cannot be precisely observed, measured or replicated. It can be
described phenomenologically, but not quantified objectively. In its place,
is a non-human consciousness. Irene refers to it accurately, This weakens
all ethical and moral parameters enabling science and unscrupulous others
such as governments to produce an army of mindless worker, fighters,
breeding machines...the list goes on. That is what scares me!
When Bert Hellinger lived with the Zulus of South Africa, he was among the
oldest continuous human culture in world history. See:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/. The Zulus came to Southern
Africa at the origin of the species. They never moved or migrated. They
never co-mingled or were invaded until the Dutch and English settlers
arrived. For them, the Ancestors are the central regulator of life. In
introducing the concepts of Orders of Love, exclusion of an ancestor, and
systemic entanglement, Hellinger is reintroducing a way of experiencing
human existence that is far removed from the existentialism of his
philosophical mentor Martin Heidegger.
Working from Hellingers three dimensions or our own variations, we tend to
not include or overlook the consciousness of the machine. However, for the
vast majority of people in our communities it is their central regulator of
life, either as religious beliefs or technological devices.
http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/stephen-shaheen-headlight
The question of who is the mother of a child conceived in a dish and brought
to gestation in a machine brings this omission into sharp focus. Irene
suggests the soul of the child will choose to integrate into the body.
Barbara is grateful she wont be alive to witness it.
I am just beginning to explore this. The next time I do a group exercise
about the 3 dimensions of consciousness, I will include representatives for
the consciousness of machines.
Dan
Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
President
Systemic Constellations Conferences and Education
www.USConstellations.com
www.HiddenSolution.com
781-718-7158
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Irene Davey
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 6:56 PM
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Im also a grandmother and mother (and a fallen Catholic) but really I dont
see anything too amiss with this concept. There are advantages and
disadvantages as there are with any new thought/product/procedure. I believe
the soul would choose or not choose to integrate with that particular body ,
maybe the soul was a scientist or an aborted fetus in their previous life?
Now having stated those quick thoughts I will paste a comment from that
article that really disturbs me:
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and social
over-layers, but the body is a machine."
This is such a throwaway line that weakens all ethical and moral parameters
enabling science and unscrupulous others such as governments to produce an
army of mindless worker, fighters, breeding machines...the list goes on.
That is what scares me!
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: <mailto:systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx> systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 07:09:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Thank you, Barbara for the sanity check--I think the Catholic Church has
rejected all these types of reproductive technologies on the premise that
children have the right to be created in the natural embrace of their
parents.
A wise thought, from an imperfect institution maybe?
Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice
Federally Certified Spanish Interpreter and Certified Medical Interpreter
<mailto:Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
3036640852
Cell 7208389509
On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:30 AM, Barbara Morgan <
<mailto:theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx> theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
What happens to the human soul when we try to control nature in this
way or rather what has already happened to the souls of those doing
this research and those who would be willing to use it? Anything
rather than deal with the pain of what is.
Horrifying and I'm glad I won't be alive to witness it. Where's the
thought for the child in all this?
Yes, an emotional response. As a mother and grandmother, it can't be
anything else for me.
Barbara
On 18 August 2012 20:14, Andrew Watson <<mailto:andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx> andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
**
This is a really interesting article on the future of reproduction:
apparently, it will be possible to conceive, gestate, and give birth
all outside a human being. It might even be possible to genetically
alter a woman's cells to create sperm with her DNA -- so she could
theoretically (and literally) be mother and "father" to her child.
The opposite could be possible with men....and apparently, it might
even be possible to have men producing milk.
I guess, in the final analysis, life will have life, however that
life comes into being......
Here's the link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a<http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a>
arathi-prasad
Hopefully this will spark yet another enriching discussion on this forum.
Enjoy!
Andy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner Editor of The
Knowing Field International Constellations Journal
<http://www.theknowingfield.com> www.theknowingfield.com
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