Hi all,
As a psychiatrist I felt I should enter the discussion about schizophrenia
and make some clarifications
First we need to acknowledge that psychiatric diagnosis is quite imprecise.
There is not blood test or brain scan findings that are diagnostic for
schizophrenia. Even psychiatrists often forget that schizophrenia is a
syndrome which almost certainly has a wide variety of causes.
Psychiatrists also forget that research shows that about one third of people
who have one schizophrenic episode fully recover with no further episodes.
This recovery is more certain if the person concerned takes antipsychotic
medication for at least 2 years following that episode. Of course the other
two thirds have further episodes and many of those go on to develop a
chronic illness. So we need to be careful as constellation practitioners for
taking the credit for a recovery
On top of all this there are still a number of practitioners who use very
loose diagnostic criteria or are frankly poor diagnosticians. For example I
have seen someone experiencing grief hallucinations of a recently deceased
loved one diagnosed as suffering schizophrenia. This diagnosis is clearly
incorrect and the subsequent prescription of antipsychotic medication harms
rather than helps the patient. Good supportive psychotherapy with a simple
explanation of the normality of grief hallucinations would have probably
been adequate in this case.
Clearly we need to keep all this in mind when assessing the effect of
constellation work on people diagnosed as suffering schizophrenia. Once we
are sure of the diagnosis constellation work will still effect different
people differently. Some simple points are worth keeping in mind for the
constellation practitioner in terms of following Hippocrates axiom Do no
harm.
1. Is the patients condition currently stable?
2. Are they under clinical supervision and does their treating psychiatrist
support their involvement in constellation work?
3. Do you have adequate support or skills if the patient gets psychotic
symptoms in a workshop or while you are working with them?
4. Have you arranged adequate follow up in case psychotic symptoms are
precipitated by the constellation work and become obvious over the next few
days?
Cheers
Chris Walsh
www.cwalsh.com.au
806 Lygon St
North Carlton
Victoria
Australia
ph: +61 (0)3 93474300
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas Bryson
Sent: Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:52 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear All,
Thank you Tomás for this thoughtful and useful response. And for bringing
ethics into the conversation.
In relationship to my clients, I am responsible for what I do as well as for
what I don't do. It is important for us to recognize our degree of training
and level of experience and to work within that framework. People are very
complex. It is best to work slowly, humbly and carefully.
Thank you,
Thomas Bryson
On Jul 14, 2010, at 12:31 AM, Tomás Kohn wrote:
Many thanks to all contributors to this thread. What I wish to say comes
with great respect and full acknowledgement of the experiences you haveall
so generously shared in this forum. I wish to refer to some of my personal
feelings with regards to the issues raised concerning working with people
suffering from serious psychotic conditions. I feel interpreted by many of
Ed's comments and concerns, and speaking from my own personal experience I
first wish to say that the idea of working with "a very disturbed psyche"
makes me uneasy (not being a trained psychotherapist, but having quite a
few years of Constellations experience). I would go as far as saying thatI
sense that my soul feels anxious.
I feel quite comfortable working with clients and their varied pains,
relational difficulties, symptoms, unhappiness and systemic entanglements,
but when it comes to work with people that have some psychotic disorder,
some basic questions come to the foreground: do I have any relevant life
experience to assist this person?, do I have sufficient distinctions
(training and professional knowledge) for this type of situation?, are we
(the client and I) in a position to communicate and understand the
implications of the work and the non-verbal contract that underlies it?,is
the person in psychiatric treatment/medicated and does he/she have the
support (authorization) from his/her therapist to enter this work?, am I
able to hold the space and the possible occurrence of a psychoticincident?,
am I putting at risk my client, the participants holding the circle and
myself? And there are surely many more to be asked.
From my point of view, these are relevant questions that reflect on the
potency of Constellations Work and have probably to do with necessary
ethical questions that I hope, practitioners in the field ask themselves
from time to time.
I don't believe there are universal answers to these and similarquestions,
but I hope that all practitioners address them from their own life
experience and with great humbleness, in order to avoid finding ourselvesin
a situation where we could harm others and ourselves.
Warmly,
Tomás Kohn
----- Original Message -----
From: "ed lynch" <breakers2@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear Stephen and All,
The 'danger' as I see it in this talk about curing or healingschizophrenia
is that it has the possibility of reducing this serious and debilitating
condition to the realm of a relatively 'quick fix' or 'miracle cure' inthe
hands of less than adequately trained constellators with minimalbackgrounds
in abnormal psychology and human behavior. Responsible systemic work
extends well beyond the boundaries of constellations. It encompasses the
broad and deep principles of systems that include and are not limited tothe
basics of precedence, hierarchy, and belonging and other constellation
principles. . Enthusiastic constellators with a bare minimum of experience
(often gained as representatives or clients only) certainly achieve
superficial 'success' with basic entanglements and whoem become emboldened
by this, go on to work with situations for which they have no solid
background or training.
As seasoned and extensively trained facilitators who do have solid
backgrounds of knowledge and experience we have an obligation to be somber
and cautious about what we purport as the capabilities of Systemic Family
Constellations. We have to talk about our work with serious psychiatric
conditions with prudence and judicious foresight. Any treatment in the
hands of the eager novice has the potential result of no help at all asthe
best outcome and serious repercussions as the worst. I have serious
reservations about putting a potentially dangerous idea in the hands ofjust
anyone who subscribes to Constellation Talk.
All the best,
Ed
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Dee Yoh <deeyoh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I believe there are times people are diagnosed with schizophrenia when
they
are actually experiencing an attached entity. That can be taken care of
through this work if the facilitator knows how to work with that and the
client is ready to let go of it. I use VoiceBio Analysis to help me
determine which it is so I can determine how to work with it. In working
Essencewith schizophrenia, after a traditional constellation I do a Core
constellation to assist in integration of the parts. I would hesitate to
say
the work "cured" anyone however I have seen dramatic improvement.
From: ed lynch
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 4:33 PM
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>To:
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear All,
I seriously doubt that systemic constellations heal or cure a clearly
diagnosed schizophrenia
Ed Lynch
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:13 PM,
<jprincipe@xxxxxxxxxx<jprincipe%40cyo.com.pe>>
wrote:
Dear all:
soul)I'm agree with Carloyn about the care we must to keep in mind (and
working with "mental diseases".
Sometime -in the middle of my training to become a Facilitator- I've
heard
"Hellingera very experienced Facilitator from Argentina something like:
andcomes and choose a person with schizophrenia because he is Hellinger
he
comsequencescan do it; but when the seminar ends, we have to deal with
in
the system of pacients without family support"
Warmly,
Julio
Enviado desde mi BlackBerry de Movistar
-----Original Message-----
<cpzahner%40cinci.rr.com>>From: "Carolyn Zahner" <cpzahner@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sender:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:00:25
To:
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear Galina et all,
Thank you for this thread. I am very grateful to the many teachers on
CT.
I am a psychotherapist from Cincinnati, Ohio, USA. I have worked with
people displaying psychotic features (hallucinations and/or delusions)
and
their families for 30 years. I have always worked from a systemic
approach
and have been applying Systemic Constellation Work (individual and
group)
to
my work for about 7 years. I am very careful about whether or not I
allow
the psychotic individual to participate in a group. I only allow
participation if the person is exhibiting strong organized thought and
is
havewell grounded in consensus reality at the time. Additionally, they
to
have strong family support and safety. The family members must be
involved
and understand the process.
I have been working with a family (father, mother, daughter) for 4
years.
At the time I became involved, both the 72 year old mother, and the 49
years old daughter were severely mentally ill. Both were drugged into
non-functional stupor in efforts to hold their hallucinations at bay.
The
mother had just recently been hospitalized. The 74 father, the total
caretaker of both his wife and daughter, was ready to collapse.
constellationOver the past 4 years, they have attended a group where a
was
constellationset up for them. Another time, per their request, we did a
in
group on their behalf (they were not present). I also had the
opportunity
to
hastake their case into supervision at Bernreid '06. Profound movement
inoccurred following each piece of work. I have also used constellation
the
individual setting, most often with mother and father together and
daughter
informindividually. The group work and the individual work continually
and
unfold in a complementary and progressive manner.
areBoth mother and daughter have made extraordinary improvements. They
now on very little medication. The 53 year old daughter has recently
moved
jobout of her parents' home for the first time, is holding a full time
and
"wakeparticipating in a CET (cognitive enhancement therapy) program to
up"
her mental functioning again. The 76 year old mother is taking art
classes
Bothand even showing and selling her work, as well as, taking Thai Chi.
changeare doing extremely well. The father has also manifested extreme
regarding his participation in this system.
I experience Constellations as one way to offer a space in which the
alternative reality of the psychotic individual can find its place and
meaning within the consensus reality of the family (and culture).
Entering
a space where all realities are able to exist can result in a family
soul
giving its permission for movement to ease the suffering. From a
systemic
approach, I ask:
1. How are the psychotic features trying to aid the individual and the
system to which s/he belongs?
manifestations2. How can the individual and/or family move to allow the
to
be experienced in different form, integrated and/or released?
withinLike dreams, we can find the wisdom in the images and experiences
the alternate reality of the psychotic experience and how they connect
to
the consensus reality of the family/culture.
As in all approaches, including Constellation Work, the deeper wisdom
and
process of the individual and the family soul determines how much, if
any
"improvement" occurs. From what I have experienced, Constellations can
be
psycchotican invaluable tool in restoring healthful functioning to the
individual and/or increasing peace and understanding for the family
members.
Best Regards,
Carolyn Zahner
Carolyn Zahner, MSW, LISW, Inc
513-697-0260
www.carolynzahner.com
11223 Cornell Park Drive, Suite 402
Cincinnati, Ohio 45242
----- Original Message -----
From: ion bucur
To:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Hi Galina,
mother(50I have participated to several workshops where a schizophrenic
years old) and her sun were participating too. After two workshops no
improvement were evident, except the fact that after the first time,
when
she could not do any work at all, was very closed, in the second was
afterdesignated to represent somebody s wife. In the constellation and
it
distinctionshe behave like a schizophrenic, without being able to make
between contellation and the real situation, between her and her role.
It
seemed that the things got worse.
But, after the third workshop, which lasted one week, and involved her
sun
Sheand her daughter in law, the very spectacular improvement appeared.
wasbecame communicative, open and for the first time after one year she
smiling and she was adequate. For the people that had known her, and
knew
how is schizophrenia perceived in psychiatry, this was like a miracle.
What happened in that workshop? When she worked, the facilitator asked
her
to choose 15 participants to represent her ancestors(She did not know
anything about a murder or something like that in her family. If
something
occured it was totaly covered, secret). She asked her ancestors for
help,
honoured them, and some of them react very clear and strong.
aIn that night we saw her for the first time smiling, and we experience
strong feeling of humble.
When I remember that I feel the same, I feel humbling.
Ion Bucur
Consultant
Signum Artis
--- On Sat, 7/10/10, Stephen Campbell
<coachuno@xxxxxxxxx<coachuno%40gmail.com>>
wrote:
From: Stephen Campbell <coachuno@xxxxxxxxx <coachuno%40gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
To:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 1:37 AM
Galina,
I have worked and participated in constellations involving
schizophrenia.
One of the most memorable was one in which I represented the young
schizophrenic. Several months later I ran into his mother and she
reported
significant improvement. A little over a year and half after the
weConstellation a young man called to make an appointment with me. When
met
in my offices and in the brief interview I realized this was the young
man
that I had represented and I can report that he has no vestiges of the
condition. I am not a psychiatrist; but, I have had considerable
experience
working with mental conditions and working with him on life and work
issues
I am clear that his current behaviors are not that of a schizophrenic.
He
subsequently mentioned that he has gotten a clean bill of health from
licensed professionals.
whatHaving facilitated several constellations involving schizophrenics
I
have learned is that the schizophrenic is entangled with a murder that
occurred between 4-7 generations back and the schizophrenic represents
the
two excluded persons: the perpetrator and the victim.
Trust this information is of use to you.
Fondly,
Stephen
STEPHEN CAMPBELL
SYSTEMIC CONSTELLATION FACILITATOR / CONSTELADOR SISTÉMICO
MA, R.SC.P., MPNLP (HEALTH), ND (CANDIDATE)
904.430.0248
213-985-2368
51.1.447.6652
51.1.995.512.315
COACHUNO@xxxxxxxxx <COACHUNO%40GMAIL.COM>
SKYPE: ELCOACHUNO
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:33, Galina Thomas
<galinat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<galinat%40dslextreme.com>
wrote:
Hi, everybody,
I have a question about schizophrenia. Has anyone had experience
working
with schizophrenia (especially not directly with a patient, but
his/her
relatives). Are there known cases of improvement as a result of
Constellations?
Thank you for any information!
Galina Thomas
MFT Trainee, Los Angeles, California
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