Well said Thomas. True with ANY situation not just Schizophrenia.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Thomas Bryson" <tb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 9:51 AM
To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear All,
Thank you Tomás for this thoughtful and useful response. And for bringing ethics into the conversation.
In relationship to my clients, I am responsible for what I do as well as for what I don't do. It is important for us to recognize our degree of training and level of experience and to work within that framework. People are very complex. It is best to work slowly, humbly and carefully.
Thank you,
Thomas Bryson
On Jul 14, 2010, at 12:31 AM, Tomás Kohn wrote:
Many thanks to all contributors to this thread. What I wish to say comes
with great respect and full acknowledgement of the experiences you have all
so generously shared in this forum. I wish to refer to some of my personal
feelings with regards to the issues raised concerning working with people
suffering from serious psychotic conditions. I feel interpreted by many of
Ed's comments and concerns, and speaking from my own personal experience I
first wish to say that the idea of working with "a very disturbed psyche"
makes me uneasy (not being a trained psychotherapist, but having quite a
few years of Constellations experience). I would go as far as saying that I
sense that my soul feels anxious.
I feel quite comfortable working with clients and their varied pains,
relational difficulties, symptoms, unhappiness and systemic entanglements,
but when it comes to work with people that have some psychotic disorder,
some basic questions come to the foreground: do I have any relevant life
experience to assist this person?, do I have sufficient distinctions
(training and professional knowledge) for this type of situation?, are we
(the client and I) in a position to communicate and understand the
implications of the work and the non-verbal contract that underlies it?, is
the person in psychiatric treatment/medicated and does he/she have the
support (authorization) from his/her therapist to enter this work?, am I
able to hold the space and the possible occurrence of a psychotic incident?,
am I putting at risk my client, the participants holding the circle and
myself? And there are surely many more to be asked.
>From my point of view, these are relevant questions that reflect on the
potency of Constellations Work and have probably to do with necessary
ethical questions that I hope, practitioners in the field ask themselves
from time to time.
I don't believe there are universal answers to these and similar questions,
but I hope that all practitioners address them from their own life
experience and with great humbleness, in order to avoid finding ourselves in
a situation where we could harm others and ourselves.
Warmly,
Tomás Kohn
----- Original Message ----- From: "ed lynch" <breakers2@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear Stephen and All,
The 'danger' as I see it in this talk about curing or healing schizophrenia
is that it has the possibility of reducing this serious and debilitating
condition to the realm of a relatively 'quick fix' or 'miracle cure' in the
hands of less than adequately trained constellators with minimal backgrounds
in abnormal psychology and human behavior. Responsible systemic work
extends well beyond the boundaries of constellations. It encompasses the
broad and deep principles of systems that include and are not limited to the
basics of precedence, hierarchy, and belonging and other constellation
principles. . Enthusiastic constellators with a bare minimum of experience
(often gained as representatives or clients only) certainly achieve
superficial 'success' with basic entanglements and whoem become emboldened
by this, go on to work with situations for which they have no solid
background or training.
As seasoned and extensively trained facilitators who do have solid
backgrounds of knowledge and experience we have an obligation to be somber
and cautious about what we purport as the capabilities of Systemic Family
Constellations. We have to talk about our work with serious psychiatric
conditions with prudence and judicious foresight. Any treatment in the
hands of the eager novice has the potential result of no help at all as the
best outcome and serious repercussions as the worst. I have serious
reservations about putting a potentially dangerous idea in the hands of just
anyone who subscribes to Constellation Talk.
All the best,
Ed
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Dee Yoh <deeyoh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> I believe there are times people are diagnosed with schizophrenia when
> they
> are actually experiencing an attached entity. That can be taken care of
> through this work if the facilitator knows how to work with that and > the
> client is ready to let go of it. I use VoiceBio Analysis to help me
> determine which it is so I can determine how to work with it. In > working
> with schizophrenia, after a traditional constellation I do a Core > Essence
> constellation to assist in integration of the parts. I would hesitate > to
> say
> the work "cured" anyone however I have seen dramatic improvement.
>
> From: ed lynch
> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 4:33 PM
>
> To: > ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
>
> Dear All,
> I seriously doubt that systemic constellations heal or cure a clearly
> diagnosed schizophrenia
> Ed Lynch
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:13 PM,
> <jprincipe@xxxxxxxxxx<jprincipe%40cyo.com.pe>>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear all:
> >
> > I'm agree with Carloyn about the care we must to keep in mind (and > > soul)
> > working with "mental diseases".
> >
> > Sometime -in the middle of my training to become a Facilitator- I've
> heard
> > a very experienced Facilitator from Argentina something like: > > "Hellinger
> > comes and choose a person with schizophrenia because he is Hellinger > > and
> he
> > can do it; but when the seminar ends, we have to deal with > > comsequences
> in
> > the system of pacients without family support"
> >
> > Warmly,
> >
> > Julio
> > Enviado desde mi BlackBerry de Movistar
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Carolyn Zahner" <cpzahner@xxxxxxxxxxxx > > <cpzahner%40cinci.rr.com>>
> > Sender:
> > ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:00:25
> > To:
> > <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Reply-To:
> > ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
> >
> > Dear Galina et all,
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you for this thread. I am very grateful to the many teachers on
> > CT.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am a psychotherapist from Cincinnati, Ohio, USA. I have worked with
> > people displaying psychotic features (hallucinations and/or > > delusions)
> and
> > their families for 30 years. I have always worked from a systemic
> approach
> > and have been applying Systemic Constellation Work (individual and
> > group)
> to
> > my work for about 7 years. I am very careful about whether or not I
> > allow
> > the psychotic individual to participate in a group. I only allow
> > participation if the person is exhibiting strong organized thought > > and
> > is
> > well grounded in consensus reality at the time. Additionally, they > > have
> to
> > have strong family support and safety. The family members must be
> involved
> > and understand the process.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have been working with a family (father, mother, daughter) for 4
> > years.
> > At the time I became involved, both the 72 year old mother, and the > > 49
> > years old daughter were severely mentally ill. Both were drugged into
> > non-functional stupor in efforts to hold their hallucinations at bay.
> > The
> > mother had just recently been hospitalized. The 74 father, the total
> > caretaker of both his wife and daughter, was ready to collapse.
> >
> >
> >
> > Over the past 4 years, they have attended a group where a > > constellation
> was
> > set up for them. Another time, per their request, we did a > > constellation
> in
> > group on their behalf (they were not present). I also had the
> > opportunity
> to
> > take their case into supervision at Bernreid '06. Profound movement > > has
> > occurred following each piece of work. I have also used constellation > > in
> the
> > individual setting, most often with mother and father together and
> daughter
> > individually. The group work and the individual work continually > > inform
> and
> > unfold in a complementary and progressive manner.
> >
> >
> >
> > Both mother and daughter have made extraordinary improvements. They > > are
> > now on very little medication. The 53 year old daughter has recently
> moved
> > out of her parents' home for the first time, is holding a full time > > job
> and
> > participating in a CET (cognitive enhancement therapy) program to > > "wake
> up"
> > her mental functioning again. The 76 year old mother is taking art
> classes
> > and even showing and selling her work, as well as, taking Thai Chi. > > Both
> > are doing extremely well. The father has also manifested extreme > > change
> > regarding his participation in this system.
> >
> >
> >
> > I experience Constellations as one way to offer a space in which the
> > alternative reality of the psychotic individual can find its place > > and
> > meaning within the consensus reality of the family (and culture).
> Entering
> > a space where all realities are able to exist can result in a family
> > soul
> > giving its permission for movement to ease the suffering. From a
> > systemic
> > approach, I ask:
> >
> > 1. How are the psychotic features trying to aid the individual and > > the
> > system to which s/he belongs?
> >
> > 2. How can the individual and/or family move to allow the > > manifestations
> to
> > be experienced in different form, integrated and/or released?
> >
> > Like dreams, we can find the wisdom in the images and experiences > > within
> > the alternate reality of the psychotic experience and how they > > connect
> > to
> > the consensus reality of the family/culture.
> >
> >
> >
> > As in all approaches, including Constellation Work, the deeper wisdom
> > and
> > process of the individual and the family soul determines how much, if
> > any
> > "improvement" occurs. From what I have experienced, Constellations > > can
> > be
> > an invaluable tool in restoring healthful functioning to the > > psycchotic
> > individual and/or increasing peace and understanding for the family
> members.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Carolyn Zahner
> >
> >
> >
> > Carolyn Zahner, MSW, LISW, Inc
> > 513-697-0260
> > www.carolynzahner.com
> > 11223 Cornell Park Drive, Suite 402
> > Cincinnati, Ohio 45242
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: ion bucur
> > To:
> > ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 3:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Galina,
> > I have participated to several workshops where a schizophrenic > > mother(50
> > years old) and her sun were participating too. After two workshops no
> > improvement were evident, except the fact that after the first time,
> > when
> > she could not do any work at all, was very closed, in the second was
> > designated to represent somebody s wife. In the constellation and > > after
> it
> > she behave like a schizophrenic, without being able to make > > distinction
> > between contellation and the real situation, between her and her > > role.
> > It
> > seemed that the things got worse.
> > But, after the third workshop, which lasted one week, and involved > > her
> sun
> > and her daughter in law, the very spectacular improvement appeared. > > She
> > became communicative, open and for the first time after one year she > > was
> > smiling and she was adequate. For the people that had known her, and
> > knew
> > how is schizophrenia perceived in psychiatry, this was like a > > miracle.
> > What happened in that workshop? When she worked, the facilitator > > asked
> her
> > to choose 15 participants to represent her ancestors(She did not know
> > anything about a murder or something like that in her family. If
> something
> > occured it was totaly covered, secret). She asked her ancestors for
> > help,
> > honoured them, and some of them react very clear and strong.
> > In that night we saw her for the first time smiling, and we > > experience a
> > strong feeling of humble.
> > When I remember that I feel the same, I feel humbling.
> >
> > Ion Bucur
> > Consultant
> > Signum Artis
> >
> > --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Stephen Campbell
> > <coachuno@xxxxxxxxx<coachuno%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Stephen Campbell <coachuno@xxxxxxxxx <coachuno%40gmail.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
> > To:
> > ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 1:37 AM
> >
> > Galina,
> >
> > I have worked and participated in constellations involving
> > schizophrenia.
> > One of the most memorable was one in which I represented the young
> > schizophrenic. Several months later I ran into his mother and she
> reported
> > significant improvement. A little over a year and half after the
> > Constellation a young man called to make an appointment with me. When > > we
> > met
> > in my offices and in the brief interview I realized this was the > > young
> > man
> > that I had represented and I can report that he has no vestiges of > > the
> > condition. I am not a psychiatrist; but, I have had considerable
> > experience
> > working with mental conditions and working with him on life and work
> > issues
> > I am clear that his current behaviors are not that of a > > schizophrenic.
> > He
> > subsequently mentioned that he has gotten a clean bill of health from
> > licensed professionals.
> >
> > Having facilitated several constellations involving schizophrenics > > what
> > I
> > have learned is that the schizophrenic is entangled with a murder > > that
> > occurred between 4-7 generations back and the schizophrenic > > represents
> the
> > two excluded persons: the perpetrator and the victim.
> >
> > Trust this information is of use to you.
> >
> > Fondly,
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > STEPHEN CAMPBELL
> > SYSTEMIC CONSTELLATION FACILITATOR / CONSTELADOR SISTÉMICO
> > MA, R.SC.P., MPNLP (HEALTH), ND (CANDIDATE)
> > 904.430.0248
> > 213-985-2368
> > 51.1.447.6652
> > 51.1.995.512.315
> > COACHUNO@xxxxxxxxx <COACHUNO%40GMAIL.COM>
> > SKYPE: ELCOACHUNO
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:33, Galina Thomas
> > <galinat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<galinat%40dslextreme.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, everybody,
> > >
> > > I have a question about schizophrenia. Has anyone had experience
> working
> > > with schizophrenia (especially not directly with a patient, but
> > > his/her
> > > relatives). Are there known cases of improvement as a result of
> > > Constellations?
> > >
> > > Thank you for any information!
> > >
> > > Galina Thomas
> > >
> > > MFT Trainee, Los Angeles, California
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
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> > 06:36:00
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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