Thank you Chris for your very clear posting, I found it most helpful!
love Heike
On 22/07/2010, at 11:11 AM, Chris Walsh wrote:
Hi all,
As a psychiatrist I felt I should enter the discussion about
schizophrenia
and make some clarifications
First we need to acknowledge that psychiatric diagnosis is quite
imprecise.
There is not blood test or brain scan findings that are diagnostic for
schizophrenia. Even psychiatrists often forget that schizophrenia is a
syndrome which almost certainly has a wide variety of causes.
Psychiatrists also forget that research shows that about one third
of people
who have one schizophrenic episode fully recover with no further
episodes.
This recovery is more certain if the person concerned takes
antipsychotic
medication for at least 2 years following that episode. Of course
the other
two thirds have further episodes and many of those go on to develop a
chronic illness. So we need to be careful as constellation
practitioners for
taking the credit for a recovery
On top of all this there are still a number of practitioners who use
very
loose diagnostic criteria or are frankly poor diagnosticians. For
example I
have seen someone experiencing grief hallucinations of a recently
deceased
loved one diagnosed as suffering schizophrenia. This diagnosis is
clearly
incorrect and the subsequent prescription of antipsychotic
medication harms
rather than helps the patient. Good supportive psychotherapy with a
simple
explanation of the normality of grief hallucinations would have
probably
been adequate in this case.
Clearly we need to keep all this in mind when assessing the effect of
constellation work on people diagnosed as suffering schizophrenia.
Once we
are sure of the diagnosis constellation work will still effect
different
people differently. Some simple points are worth keeping in mind for
the
constellation practitioner in terms of following Hippocrates axiom
Do no
harm.
1. Is the patients condition currently stable?
2. Are they under clinical supervision and does their treating
psychiatrist
support their involvement in constellation work?
3. Do you have adequate support or skills if the patient gets
psychotic
symptoms in a workshop or while you are working with them?
4. Have you arranged adequate follow up in case psychotic symptoms are
precipitated by the constellation work and become obvious over the
next few
days?
Cheers
Chris Walsh
www.cwalsh.com.au
806 Lygon St
North Carlton
Victoria
Australia
ph: +61 (0)3 93474300
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas Bryson
Sent: Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:52 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear All,
Thank you Tomás for this thoughtful and useful response. And for
bringing
ethics into the conversation.
In relationship to my clients, I am responsible for what I do as
well as for
what I don't do. It is important for us to recognize our degree of
training
and level of experience and to work within that framework. People
are very
complex. It is best to work slowly, humbly and carefully.
Thank you,
Thomas Bryson
On Jul 14, 2010, at 12:31 AM, Tomás Kohn wrote:
Many thanks to all contributors to this thread. What I wish to saycomes
with great respect and full acknowledgement of the experiences youhave
all
so generously shared in this forum. I wish to refer to some of mypersonal
feelings with regards to the issues raised concerning working withpeople
suffering from serious psychotic conditions. I feel interpreted bymany of
Ed's comments and concerns, and speaking from my own personalexperience I
first wish to say that the idea of working with "a very disturbedpsyche"
makes me uneasy (not being a trained psychotherapist, but havingquite a
few years of Constellations experience). I would go as far assaying that
I
sense that my soul feels anxious.
I feel quite comfortable working with clients and their variedpains,
relational difficulties, symptoms, unhappiness and systemicentanglements,
but when it comes to work with people that have some psychoticdisorder,
some basic questions come to the foreground: do I have anyrelevant life
experience to assist this person?, do I have sufficient distinctions
(training and professional knowledge) for this type of situation?,are we
(the client and I) in a position to communicate and understand the
implications of the work and the non-verbal contract thatunderlies it?,
is
the person in psychiatric treatment/medicated and does he/she havethe
support (authorization) from his/her therapist to enter thiswork?, am I
able to hold the space and the possible occurrence of a psychoticincident?,
am I putting at risk my client, the participants holding thecircle and
myself? And there are surely many more to be asked.
on theFrom my point of view, these are relevant questions that reflect
potency of Constellations Work and have probably to do withnecessary
ethical questions that I hope, practitioners in the field askthemselves
from time to time.
I don't believe there are universal answers to these and similarquestions,
but I hope that all practitioners address them from their own life
experience and with great humbleness, in order to avoid findingourselves
in
a situation where we could harm others and ourselves.
Warmly,
Tomás Kohn
----- Original Message -----
From: "ed lynch" <breakers2@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear Stephen and All,
The 'danger' as I see it in this talk about curing or healingschizophrenia
is that it has the possibility of reducing this serious anddebilitating
condition to the realm of a relatively 'quick fix' or 'miraclecure' in
the
hands of less than adequately trained constellators with minimalbackgrounds
in abnormal psychology and human behavior. Responsible systemic work
extends well beyond the boundaries of constellations. Itencompasses the
broad and deep principles of systems that include and are notlimited to
the
basics of precedence, hierarchy, and belonging and otherconstellation
principles. . Enthusiastic constellators with a bare minimum ofexperience
(often gained as representatives or clients only) certainly achieve
superficial 'success' with basic entanglements and whoem becomeemboldened
by this, go on to work with situations for which they have no solid
background or training.
As seasoned and extensively trained facilitators who do have solid
backgrounds of knowledge and experience we have an obligation tobe somber
and cautious about what we purport as the capabilities of SystemicFamily
Constellations. We have to talk about our work with seriouspsychiatric
conditions with prudence and judicious foresight. Any treatment inthe
hands of the eager novice has the potential result of no help atall as
the
best outcome and serious repercussions as the worst. I have serious
reservations about putting a potentially dangerous idea in thehands of
just
anyone who subscribes to Constellation Talk.
All the best,
Ed
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Dee Yoh <deeyoh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
schizophrenia whenI believe there are times people are diagnosed with
they
care ofare actually experiencing an attached entity. That can be taken
and thethrough this work if the facilitator knows how to work with that
meclient is ready to let go of it. I use VoiceBio Analysis to help
workingdetermine which it is so I can determine how to work with it. In
Essencewith schizophrenia, after a traditional constellation I do a Core
hesitate toconstellation to assist in integration of the parts. I would
say
the work "cured" anyone however I have seen dramatic improvement.
From: ed lynch
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 4:33 PM
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>To:
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and schizophrenia.
Dear All,
clearlyI seriously doubt that systemic constellations heal or cure a
diagnosed schizophrenia
Ed Lynch
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:13 PM,
<jprincipe@xxxxxxxxxx<jprincipe%40cyo.com.pe>>
wrote:
Dear all:
(andI'm agree with Carloyn about the care we must to keep in mind
soul)
working with "mental diseases".
Facilitator- I'veSometime -in the middle of my training to become a
heard
"Hellingera very experienced Facilitator from Argentina something like:
Hellingercomes and choose a person with schizophrenia because he is
and
he
comsequencescan do it; but when the seminar ends, we have to deal with
in
the system of pacients without family support"
Warmly,
Julio
Enviado desde mi BlackBerry de Movistar
-----Original Message-----
<cpzahner%40cinci.rr.com>>From: "Carolyn Zahner" <cpzahner@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sender:
%40yahoogroups.com>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:00:25
To:
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk
%40yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To:
%40yahoogroups.com>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk
schizophrenia.Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and
Dear Galina et all,
teachers onThank you for this thread. I am very grateful to the many
CT.
worked withI am a psychotherapist from Cincinnati, Ohio, USA. I have
delusions)people displaying psychotic features (hallucinations and/or
and
systemictheir families for 30 years. I have always worked from a
approach
andand have been applying Systemic Constellation Work (individual
group)
to
not Imy work for about 7 years. I am very careful about whether or
allow
the psychotic individual to participate in a group. I only allow
thought andparticipation if the person is exhibiting strong organized
is
theywell grounded in consensus reality at the time. Additionally,
have
to
behave strong family support and safety. The family members must
involved
and understand the process.
for 4I have been working with a family (father, mother, daughter)
years.
and the 49At the time I became involved, both the 72 year old mother,
drugged intoyears old daughter were severely mentally ill. Both were
at bay.non-functional stupor in efforts to hold their hallucinations
The
totalmother had just recently been hospitalized. The 74 father, the
caretaker of both his wife and daughter, was ready to collapse.
constellationOver the past 4 years, they have attended a group where a
was
constellationset up for them. Another time, per their request, we did a
in
group on their behalf (they were not present). I also had the
opportunity
to
movementtake their case into supervision at Bernreid '06. Profound
has
constellationoccurred following each piece of work. I have also used
in
the
andindividual setting, most often with mother and father together
daughter
informindividually. The group work and the individual work continually
and
unfold in a complementary and progressive manner.
TheyBoth mother and daughter have made extraordinary improvements.
are
recentlynow on very little medication. The 53 year old daughter has
moved
timeout of her parents' home for the first time, is holding a full
job
and
toparticipating in a CET (cognitive enhancement therapy) program
"wake
up"
arther mental functioning again. The 76 year old mother is taking
classes
Chi.and even showing and selling her work, as well as, taking Thai
Both
changeare doing extremely well. The father has also manifested extreme
regarding his participation in this system.
which theI experience Constellations as one way to offer a space in
place andalternative reality of the psychotic individual can find its
culture).meaning within the consensus reality of the family (and
Entering
familya space where all realities are able to exist can result in a
soul
giving its permission for movement to ease the suffering. From a
systemic
approach, I ask:
and the1. How are the psychotic features trying to aid the individual
system to which s/he belongs?
manifestations2. How can the individual and/or family move to allow the
to
be experienced in different form, integrated and/or released?
experiencesLike dreams, we can find the wisdom in the images and
within
connectthe alternate reality of the psychotic experience and how they
to
the consensus reality of the family/culture.
wisdomAs in all approaches, including Constellation Work, the deeper
and
much, ifprocess of the individual and the family soul determines how
any
Constellations can"improvement" occurs. From what I have experienced,
be
psycchotican invaluable tool in restoring healthful functioning to the
familyindividual and/or increasing peace and understanding for the
members.
Best Regards,
Carolyn Zahner
Carolyn Zahner, MSW, LISW, Inc
513-697-0260
www.carolynzahner.com
11223 Cornell Park Drive, Suite 402
Cincinnati, Ohio 45242
----- Original Message -----
From: ion bucur
To:
%40yahoogroups.com>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 3:02 AM
schizophrenia.Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and
Hi Galina,
mother(50I have participated to several workshops where a schizophrenic
workshops noyears old) and her sun were participating too. After two
time,improvement were evident, except the fact that after the first
when
second wasshe could not do any work at all, was very closed, in the
anddesignated to represent somebody s wife. In the constellation
after
it
distinctionshe behave like a schizophrenic, without being able to make
her role.between contellation and the real situation, between her and
It
seemed that the things got worse.
involved herBut, after the third workshop, which lasted one week, and
sun
appeared.and her daughter in law, the very spectacular improvement
She
year shebecame communicative, open and for the first time after one
was
her, andsmiling and she was adequate. For the people that had known
knew
miracle.how is schizophrenia perceived in psychiatry, this was like a
facilitator askedWhat happened in that workshop? When she worked, the
her
not knowto choose 15 participants to represent her ancestors(She did
anything about a murder or something like that in her family. If
something
ancestors foroccured it was totaly covered, secret). She asked her
help,
honoured them, and some of them react very clear and strong.
experienceIn that night we saw her for the first time smiling, and we
a
strong feeling of humble.
When I remember that I feel the same, I feel humbling.
Ion Bucur
Consultant
Signum Artis
--- On Sat, 7/10/10, Stephen Campbell
<coachuno@xxxxxxxxx<coachuno%40gmail.com>>
wrote:
%40gmail.com>>From: Stephen Campbell <coachuno@xxxxxxxxx <coachuno
schizophrenia.Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Constellations and
To:
%40yahoogroups.com>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk
Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 1:37 AM
Galina,
I have worked and participated in constellations involving
schizophrenia.
youngOne of the most memorable was one in which I represented the
sheschizophrenic. Several months later I ran into his mother and
reported
significant improvement. A little over a year and half after the
me. WhenConstellation a young man called to make an appointment with
we
met
the youngin my offices and in the brief interview I realized this was
man
vestiges of thethat I had represented and I can report that he has no
condition. I am not a psychiatrist; but, I have had considerable
experience
and workworking with mental conditions and working with him on life
issues
schizophrenic.I am clear that his current behaviors are not that of a
He
health fromsubsequently mentioned that he has gotten a clean bill of
licensed professionals.
schizophrenicsHaving facilitated several constellations involving
what
I
murder thathave learned is that the schizophrenic is entangled with a
representsoccurred between 4-7 generations back and the schizophrenic
the
two excluded persons: the perpetrator and the victim.
Trust this information is of use to you.
Fondly,
Stephen
STEPHEN CAMPBELL
SYSTEMIC CONSTELLATION FACILITATOR / CONSTELADOR SISTÉMICO
MA, R.SC.P., MPNLP (HEALTH), ND (CANDIDATE)
904.430.0248
213-985-2368
51.1.447.6652
51.1.995.512.315
COACHUNO@xxxxxxxxx <COACHUNO%40GMAIL.COM>
SKYPE: ELCOACHUNO
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:33, Galina Thomas
<galinat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<galinat%40dslextreme.com>
wrote:
Hi, everybody,
experienceI have a question about schizophrenia. Has anyone had
working
butwith schizophrenia (especially not directly with a patient,
his/her
ofrelatives). Are there known cases of improvement as a result
Constellations?
Thank you for any information!
Galina Thomas
MFT Trainee, Los Angeles, California
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/10/10Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2993 - Release Date:
06:36:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/
Individual Email | Traditional
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
ConstellationTalk-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ConstellationTalk-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ConstellationTalk-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]