Frank,
You and I are like two ships passing in the dark, in a heavy fog.
Well, either we are fogged in, or we are stubbornly refusing to give
ground. So, if winning is important to you, and it is also important
to me, just what does it mean, "To Win"? Is Clinton over Trump a win?
If so, go for it! But for me, voting for Clinton is like finding a
half eaten chicken salad sandwich in the cafes dumpster.
Maybe you can swallow it, and maybe it brings relief to your hunger
pangs, but it is very apt to come up on you later. For me, that's not
a win. I smell rancid Mayonnaise and sour Chicken on that Hillary
Sandwich. Anyway, no matter if I cast my vote for the Prince of
Wales, Hillary is going to be our next president. Four to eight more
years of Bully Boy tactics overseas, dwindling production jobs at
home, more folks disenfranchised, more bridges caving in and school
buildings crumbling, more gun murders, more demonstrations that prove
nothing, and the ongoing slavery of the lower class nonwhite folks
ensnared by our growing private prisons, and the continuous financial
entrapment of our college students.
In fact, a win by Hillary will be a hollow victory. Take a good look
at how the Republican Party has gerrymandered our state voting
districts to ensure the re-election of Republicans, despite the actual
popular vote. Congress will remain as poisoned by undemocratic
tactics regardless of who slips into the Oval Office.
And as for our supreme court? Even mild mannered, middle of the
right, prince of peace at any cost, even he can't push a stuffy judge
into the Court. Will Congress allow Hillary to select a person with
any compassion for the Working Class? Frankly Frank, the Labor
Movement has turned out to be as institutionalized as has Wall Street.
Workers can no longer depend on someone else leading the way for them.
We can talk all we want about "reforming" our current system of
undemocratic capitalism, but once dry rot has spread across the entire
foundation, all that will reform it is to tear down the building and
erect a newer, better place to live.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/28/16, Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, I would only agree with that if the Green party had a chance of
winning, but as you said they don’t. Other than thatwhatever vote count the
Green party will get will be forgotten the morning after.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 1:35 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: CBS this morning
Where you and I disagree, Frank, is saying that a vote for the Green Party
is a vote for Trump, or whoever the Republicans run up the flag pole. But
what about saying that a vote for the Green Party is a vote for more control
by the working class? What if such a vote is in favor of providing all
children with a free education, as far as they can bring themselves. And
what if we are voting *FOR a reduction in military bases around the planet,
or a $15.00 minimum wage to be phased in within two years, or an end to
fossil fuel subsidies? All these and more issues that neither of the
candidates representing the Democrats or Republicans are really supporting?
In fact, a vote for Hillary is the same as voting against Peace. A vote for
Trump is a vote for placing the dismantling of democracy on the fast track.
A vote for either of these two is a vote against the America we once
believed was our, America the Beautiful, and a vote for the Values of the
American Corporate Empire.
Yes, a vote for Jill Stein very well could be a vote for the hope of a
better world for the working class.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/27/16, Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Bob, you're not getting it. Take for example what Carl correctly said
about the Green party not having any chance to win. With that being
established as a constant what is the effect of voting for that no
chance party? The answer is a benefit to the GOP, as any vote against
their rival (DNC) is worth the same for them as a direct GOP vote
would, it is a number in the plus column for the GOP. Actually, I'll
take that a step further and go as far as to say that the GOP actually
*wants* us to vote for the Green party. Why you ask?
Simply if we vote directly for the GOP they would be forced to
acknowledge us. However voting for the Green party gives them that
plus in the win column and allows them to be dismissive of us as
merely a bunch of fringe radicals. As far as conscience goes, if
someone already is aware of that first constant we spoke about above
and still performs an action (voting
Green) that, by design, strictly benefits the GOP; then what does that
tell you about their conscience? You may not like it, may not
acknowledge it, or even be aware of it; but elections have
consequences. Now if my memory serves me correctly, I believe it was
you who, a few months back, said in reference to voting third party
that if "a republican gets elected then so be it". Well take a look at
the two supreme court cases decided today (reproductive rights and gun
control) and think about how the court will change with Mr. GOP in
office as opposed to someone else. I fully understand that voting
Green may feel really good on election day but try explaining that to
the women of Texas on January 18, 2017. As I said there is no plan B
morning after pill for elections and there won't be for Texas women either
if Mr. GOP is allowed to win.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Hachey
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 11:42 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: CBS this morning
Hi Frank,
I want to be sure I am understanding you correctly. ARE you saying
that folks on this list such as Carl, Miriam and myself have GOP
leanings? ARE you saying that just because we express concerns over
voting for Clinton that we secretly favor the GOP or Trump? Also, are
you saying that voting one's conscience in 2016 is a selfish act?
Heck, I always thought that the point of a democracy is for every
citizen to vote his or her conscience. By the way, Miriam and others
have posted here oodles of articles critical of Trump and many other
Republicans.
I challenge you to make the case for how Miriam or any others of us on
this list who have reservations about Clinton are or may be closet
Republicans.
While I agree with you that I don't want to see Trump become
president, I believe even more strongly that we have a very badly
broken system and that both parties are to blame. Perhaps the
Republicans deserve more of the blame, but the Democrats are not
completely innocent. For more on the guilt of democrats and liberals
please do read "listen Liberal" by Thomas frank.
By the way, I seriously doubt that Thomas Frank is a closet Republican.
Bob Hachey
