[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

From: Robert Spence <robert.allan.spence@xxxxxxxxx>
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 18:42:15 +0200

Dear Brad,

Thanks so much for this!

<3

Rob

On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 at 23:52, Bradley Smith <semiosmith@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dear Robert,

it appears that Robert Mannell's teaching materials are still there, I
think they just moved URL location:
https://www.mq.edu.au/about/about-the-university/our-faculties/medicine-and-health-sciences/departments-and-centres/department-of-linguistics/our-research/phonetics-and-phonology/speech/phonetics-and-phonology
- I have used them consistently over the years as a reference tool whenever
I need to refresh my mind on any aspect of mainstream phonetics and
phonology

Regards,
Brad
Bradley A. Smith,
PhD (Linguistics), BA Hons 1st Class (Linguistics), Macquarie University.
Proprietor: *Semiosmith Academic Editing and Consulting Services*
http://semiosmith.com/; YouTube channel
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFCEj5Bc_a2jiv2Tjflnx7Q>
Honorary Associate, Department of Linguistics, Faculty of Arts and Social
Sciences, University of Sydney.
Ph - 0450 146 456
Email - semiosmith@xxxxxxxxx
I acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land where I live and work,
situated on the land of the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung peoples of the Kulin
Nations, and pay my respects to Elders past, present, and emerging. I am
voting YES to a Constitutional Voice.

On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 11:42 AM Robert Spence <
robert.allan.spence@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

David,

What a great idea!

It reminds me of a problem that comes up when working with annotated
corpora of spoken language: the bottom line is always descriptivism, i.e.
an -etic (outsider) rather than an -emic (insider) transcription. But the
descriptions offered are often ambiguous from the point of view of a
theoretically motivated analysis. So you have to keep going back to the
"data" and disambiguating. It would in my view be much better to just
commit to a particular, theoretically motivated "-emic" analysis.

I started Linguistics at SU in 1975; Michael arrived to take up the chair
at the end of that year. The courses in those days were coordinated by Dr
Charles Taylor, a splendid linguist, who, as Michael pointed out, had "read
everything". .From Charles Taylor we had a very theoretical introduction to
the different schools of linguistic thought, and were literally chomping at
the bit to actually get into some "actual" descriptions and analyses or
real languages. That was provided by Harland Kerr, who taught us Tagmemics;
we had to write a grammar of a language from the central highlands of Papua
New Guinea, Wiru, based on 400 sentences in that language with English
glosses. It was pure heaven -- the theoretical framework was loose enough
to be able to be applied to languages whose "inner form" you couldn't yet
grasp, but at the same time it imposed quite strict constraints.

Alongside Harland Kerr's introduction to grammar, we had Alex Jones as
our phonetics teacher. He always came to class wearing an academic gown,
and his Parkinsonism made the lessons so much more exciting: we were
literally on the edge of our seats when he said "I will now produce an
example of a [insert name of strange sound]" and then took seemingly ages
to gather his forces to produce the sound.

BTW: Alex Jones had an interesting feature matrix for English phonemes --
the question of how to decide between competing matrices of binary features
was a perennial topic in the theoretical classes. He claimed that the
rounding of the Australian back open vowel was not distinctive, and
transcribed it as it was American English.

If anyone has a copy of his course notes from back then, I'd love to talk
to you. My own copy is in Sydney, where I was planning to be right now
while preparing my Phonetics classes for the coming semester, and I'd been
intending to include some of his ideas.

Alex Jones somehow also got a wonderfully heretical article published, in
which he provided evidence against the "arbitrariness of the sign" by
pointing out that there were tendencies in some aboriginal languages to
associate particular phonemes with particular sememes (not sure if that's
what he called them though). MAKH was surprised at how much flak Jones
received for his public heresy. I have a PDF of the article if anyone is
interested.

Jones described a variety of Australian English that no longer exists:
His vowels were arranged in a square, three-by-three.
Not all of the places were occupied by short vowels, but that didn't seem
to worry him.
At each of the eight peripheral points, though, there was a phoneme that
could be realised EITHER as a long pure vowel OR as a centering diphthong:
BEARD    BIRD         GOURD
BARED                      BORED
BAD         BARRED   GONE
(reconstructing this from memory, and not very well).
Of this glorious system, only the centering diphthong of BEARD still
exists in standard modern RP; and if a system only has one term (Ulrich
Engel claims there is only one real "tense" in German, the preterite, and
that therefore, by definition ... ) it is impossible to speak of a
"system":

Brad:
I always show my students Mannell's diagrams of articulation. They never
believe that the soft palate can be so firmly pressed against the back of
the pharynx ... until I show them an fMRI of a speaker actually
articulating. It's sad that the website for Robert Mannell's and Felicity
Cox's courses are no longer available on the Macquarie Uni website.

David:
I guess the thing that most peeves me about descriptivism is the
descriptivists' implicit assumption that you can describe things _without_
a specific theory lurking in the background. It's kind of cheating ...

And, most importantly of all, as the Little Red Hen would have put it on
David's behalf:
"Who will help me _write_ the SFL guide to descriptivism?"

Would be difficult to get funding for such a project via the normal
channels, I reckon.

-- Rob

P.S. By chance on the internet today I came across Leonardo DiCaprio (as
Rimbaud) offering David Thewlis (as Verlaine) renewed inspiration in return
for the funding of a decadent joint lifestyle.
(Pure coincidence, of course.)

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 at 00:41, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Re idée fixe

You know what would be a really useful critique would be an SFL guide to
descriptivism. SFL is often contrasted to formalism, but formalist theory
merely emerges from and sinks back into the vast primordial swamp of
descriptivism. The ‘mainstream’ isn’t formalist, it’s descriptivist. Type
“a grammar of” into googlescholar and you’ll see 1000s of these
descriptions, all built on the same floor plan, like strip housing
developments. Does anyone work in a lx dept that isn’t dominated by
descriptivists, of whatever stripe or stratum? Almost all lx students are
trained in it, and not just its (stunted) systems and methods, but its
community standards, its (unstated) rules of affiliation.

Such a guide would be enormously helpful for SFL lg description, and for
knowing the soil in which we’d like SFL to grow.

David

*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Robert Spence <robert.allan.spence@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Wednesday, 27 March 2024 at 8:11 am
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

So as always it's Hume who rouses us from our metaphysical slumber:
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can
never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."

Personally, I think the main reason for the exclusion of SFL from the
mainstream is that the mainstream is labouring under the idée fixe that
consciousness is situated inside skulls. For two years I had the chance to
work at a German-speaking university that knew better, and therefore
classified applied linguistics as a social science; but KMU Leipzig is no
more.

Publishing companies play a role in the exclusion process, too. They're
one of the essential links in the transmission process from teacher
trainers to trainee teachers to fully-fledged school teachers: everyone
seems satisfied by their grammar-in-a-cage, with its familiar terminology
and its limitation to merely understanding the world, rather than
attempting to change it.

On MAKH's response to criticism, some anecdotes:

1)
A colleague (a phonetician specialising in intonation) had been trained
by David Crystal. We discussed Halliday's and Crystal's theories at length,
and one day she let slip that the two scholars didn't get on. I had no
inkling of this from Halliday's writings, and was so curious (especially
after checking Crystal's meticulous online listing of the "mistakes" in
Halliday's work) that I asked Michael what he didn't like about Crystal.
His reply:
// .  he's / so often */wrong //
(Actually it was a squiggly line under "wrong", not a preceding
asterisk; he hated that asterisk.)
The tone was tone .1. but would have been .1- if he hadn't put slightly
more stress on the "wrong" than was to be expected by the undertone of
frustration that haunted the outset of the utterance.

2)
Michael's description of tense in English was generally met with
astonishment by his Master's students who were themselves English teachers.
When queried, he would reply that he had investigated the competing
descriptions and come to the conclusion that the one he propounded (based
on Jespersen and Reichenbach) was the most suitable.  Carl Bache was so
stunned by Michael's curt dismissal of his own criticism of the IFG
treatment of tense that he wrote an entire book in the hope of getting
Michael to recant. (If you're following this up, ignore Table 6(11) in IFG3
and Table 6-13 in IFG4, as they're a bit garbled towards the end. Use Table
6(7) from IFG2 instead.)

3)
Michael said on more than one occasion that he was a "slow worker". This
was so at odds with his prodigious output, the energy with which he threw
himself into tasks, and the fact that he was, in Ruqaiya's words, "more
generous with his time" than any other linguist of his international
standing, that I kind of suspect the label of being a "slow worker" may
have originated as part of the work of self-criticism practised in a
collective in China during the early years of the revolution. That, or he
simply had unrealistic expectations.

4)
Michael once said (this is not meant to sound like a passage from the
Analects) that "you just have to go on saying it from as many angles as
possible until they understand". I like to juxtapose this statement with
the astonishment of those who were reacting to something that Michael was
sure about when everyone else was sure about the contrary.

-- Rob Spence

P.S.
David: There's an alternative to your gallows humour. Instead of putting
my head in a bag like the Elephant Man, I could take advantage of the
present situation in Germany and in the department where I teach. Germany
would allow me to self-identify my gender, and changing one's gender is in
fact seen positively by the department. By chance, one of my 28 (im)pending
students actually read the notice asking intending students to contact me
by email; we've been mailing back and forth about Urdu phonology, Turkish
versus Urdu accents when reading Classical Arabic, and the difficulty of
trying to find out what the pre-colonial vocabulary of Urdu was. If this
student has no objections, I can self-identify as female and wear a niqab
while teaching, until my nose is normal again.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 at 10:56, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

An example closer to home might be the persistent marginalisation of SFL
in international linguistics. The people ignoring or locking it out of
courses and departments all have PhDs in linguistic reasoning.

Couldn’t resist sharing this re comparing theories...

‘There is a distinct difference between having an open mind and having a
hole in your head from which your brain leaks out’.

David

*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Monday, 25 March 2024 at 3:35 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

Yes, I agree. I don't think explanatory potential and validity can be
excised from consciousness either.

After all, it is consciousness that enacts the propositions of theory,

and consciousness that interpersonally assesses them for explanatory
potential and validity.

So when it comes down to choosing between theories,

say, Newton's or Einstein's construal of gravity,

it comes down to feelings:

which one the community feels happier with.

Perhaps a more appropriate example would be a fundamentalist religious
community

choosing between Natural Selection and Creationism

on the basis of which one they feel happier with.

dr chris cléirigh

*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

— John Ruskin

====================================

Some Of My Sites

Review of *Subjacency Duplexes*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Dnp1C5QPXJigZJrOoczRh6c?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/m7UXC6XQ4LfVrN4xEI6hq10?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Factoring Out Structure*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/H90FC71R2NTEAgB9vuB3Crl?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Embodied Meaning*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/CZNLC81V0PTO6GyxlhMI2iS?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Lexis As Most Local Context*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2mrRC91WPRTRk0wPvfPX6xB?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Axial Relations*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o7SoC0YKPviJGxAlKc3iLow?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Review of* A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional Linguistics*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Q6cMCgZ0N1iPA3znrIZSwdl?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Deploying Functional Grammar*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/XqjtCjZ1N7ilnrxk2CxDGVr?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Working With Discourse*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/QT9xCk81N9tYOEJZ7c0vy1O?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Bateman's Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/7D4uClx1NjiO2rYDyhN8ReA?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Lexicogrammatical Cartography*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/X5B1CmO5glu1jxQGZuwwjRn?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>

Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/WuJZCnx1jnil7ERQzCzAJoD?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>

Learning From Mistakes
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gPICCoV1kpflrnyJMCmYGF7?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Primate Dominance Strategies
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/akSOCp81lrtQn2RPGI9ejaB?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL Community
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3rCOCq71mwfL8QMGDugOTmA?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/O2ucCr81nytw8qBXpc5tNMS?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>

Sample SFL Analyses
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/8epBCvl1rKiO79koGhPJ1XO?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/RVmCCwV1vMf0GjwX7UznB_K?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

General SFL Matters
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/iKW7CxngwOfm1lWKyhmHC-9?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>

Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/mY5MCyojxQT6r1BEgiL8Gg7?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>

Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/_mUPCzvkyVC8M1jv3UyIJYl?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>

The Opposite of Social Media
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/E4TwCANpgjCrNQDMgUyKv9H?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>

====================================

On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 at 14:31, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I don't believe those theoretical ideals can be excised from the
embodied consciousness that produces them, as Edelman teaches us and you
wrote about so brilliantly all those years ago, in terms of homeostasis. No
matter how loftily we ideationalise our criteria for validity, it still
comes down to feelings. Perhaps the loftier the criteria, the more feelings
we invest.

*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Monday, 25 March 2024 at 11:53 am
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

So theorising is more about affiliation;

less about relative explanatory potential and valid reasoning,

and more about being bound together as a community

by the interpretations of the theory produced by the community.

And these interpretations serve as icons that the community can rally
around and should celebrate.

dr chris cléirigh

*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

— John Ruskin

====================================

Some Of My Sites

Review of *Subjacency Duplexes*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Dnp1C5QPXJigZJrOoczRh6c?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/m7UXC6XQ4LfVrN4xEI6hq10?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Factoring Out Structure*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/H90FC71R2NTEAgB9vuB3Crl?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Embodied Meaning*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/CZNLC81V0PTO6GyxlhMI2iS?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Lexis As Most Local Context*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2mrRC91WPRTRk0wPvfPX6xB?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Axial Relations*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o7SoC0YKPviJGxAlKc3iLow?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Review of* A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional Linguistics*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Q6cMCgZ0N1iPA3znrIZSwdl?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Deploying Functional Grammar*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/XqjtCjZ1N7ilnrxk2CxDGVr?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Working With Discourse*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/QT9xCk81N9tYOEJZ7c0vy1O?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Bateman's Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/7D4uClx1NjiO2rYDyhN8ReA?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Lexicogrammatical Cartography*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/X5B1CmO5glu1jxQGZuwwjRn?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>

Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/WuJZCnx1jnil7ERQzCzAJoD?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>

Learning From Mistakes
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gPICCoV1kpflrnyJMCmYGF7?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Primate Dominance Strategies
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/akSOCp81lrtQn2RPGI9ejaB?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL Community
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3rCOCq71mwfL8QMGDugOTmA?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/O2ucCr81nytw8qBXpc5tNMS?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>

Sample SFL Analyses
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/8epBCvl1rKiO79koGhPJ1XO?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/RVmCCwV1vMf0GjwX7UznB_K?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

General SFL Matters
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/iKW7CxngwOfm1lWKyhmHC-9?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>

Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/mY5MCyojxQT6r1BEgiL8Gg7?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>

Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/_mUPCzvkyVC8M1jv3UyIJYl?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>

The Opposite of Social Media
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/E4TwCANpgjCrNQDMgUyKv9H?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>

====================================

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 at 20:04, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Yes, the question’s not about grammar is it? It’s about metalanguage, so
the explanation is necessarily at the stratum of register. And it’s not
just a question about the theory, and its uses in analyses, applications,
publishing and teaching, but about the community of users that we’re
privileged to belong to. It’s about belonging and authority... who has the
authority to interpret, extend or enhance the theory and its applications,
whose analyses should be celebrated by the community, who’s inside. The
simple answer is all of us. We all belong to the community, and we all draw
our repertoires from its reservoir of appliable theory. We’re all guided by
each other. The answers I’ve given are the best I can do, so thanks for
asking the questions.

“Aunty,” Jem spoke up, “Atticus says you can choose your friends but you
sho’ can’t choose your family, an’ they’re still kin to you no matter
whether you acknowledge ’em or not, and it makes you look right silly when
you don’t.”

D

*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Sunday, 24 March 2024 at 3:19 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

So the obvious explanatory advantage of this grammatical analysis:

over this grammatical analysis:

isn't grammatical at all. It's explanatory advantage is viewed from
'above' language, from the level of context:

F: a traditional multivariate Hallidayan analysis of nom gp functions,
but with all realising syntagms accounted for, using subj dupl labels, and
possessive suffixes explicitly labelled as non-recursive #b

M: clearly displays each structure:syntagm cycle at each rank

T: authority of a ‘standard analysis’ plus, and it’s counterexpectantly
funnier

So what does the first analysis have that construes this context that
the second analysis lacks?

dr chris cléirigh

*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

— John Ruskin

====================================

Some Of My Sites

Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/m7UXC6XQ4LfVrN4xEI6hq10?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Axial Relations*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o7SoC0YKPviJGxAlKc3iLow?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Learning From Mistakes
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gPICCoV1kpflrnyJMCmYGF7?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Primate Dominance Strategies
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/akSOCp81lrtQn2RPGI9ejaB?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL Community
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3rCOCq71mwfL8QMGDugOTmA?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/RVmCCwV1vMf0GjwX7UznB_K?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

====================================

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 at 08:45, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I’d kinda hoped it was obvious, a linguistic double entendre

But OK, it’s a pleasant Sunday morning exercise that someone may find
useful, evaluating field, mode, tenor

The full arguments are in...

Martin, J. R., & Doran, Y. J. (2023). Structure markers: A subjacency
duplex analysis. *Language, Context and Text*, *5*(1), 16-48.

Maybe Yaegan could post a pdf, as I can’t download through usyd?

This nom gp is ambiguous, with two different experiential
interpretations. I offered three analyses...

1. Whose king’s hat? – counterexpectant interpretation

[image: A white rectangular box with black text Description
automatically generated]

F: a traditional multivariate Hallidayan analysis of nom gp functions,
but with all realising syntagms accounted for, using subj dupl labels, and
possessive suffixes explicitly labelled as non-recursive #b

M: clearly displays each structure:syntagm cycle at each rank

T: authority of a ‘standard analysis’ plus, and it’s counterexpectantly
funnier

2. Whose king’s hat?

F: a re-analysis of nom gp classifying function, as recursive
subclassification at word rank, rather than multivariate group functions
(Classifier Thing)

M: displays complementarity of subjacent and hypotactic word rank
structures

T: more radical, but interesting, potentially inspiring further research

3. Whose hat? – expectant interpretation

[image: A white rectangular object with black text Description
automatically generated]

F: more accurate than a ‘gamma beta alpha’ analysis, because this isn’t
a hypotactic series. The Deictic is realised by an embedded nom gp
[*England’s
king*], which itself has a Deictic Thing structure

M: explicit syntagm labelling reveals this structuring

T: not as funny

David

*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 11:44 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

I'll try again.

What explanatory advantage does your analysis have

over the standard SFL analysis:

dr chris cléirigh

*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

— John Ruskin

====================================

Some Of My Sites

Review of *Subjacency Duplexes*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Dnp1C5QPXJigZJrOoczRh6c?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/m7UXC6XQ4LfVrN4xEI6hq10?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Factoring Out Structure*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/H90FC71R2NTEAgB9vuB3Crl?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Embodied Meaning*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/CZNLC81V0PTO6GyxlhMI2iS?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Lexis As Most Local Context*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2mrRC91WPRTRk0wPvfPX6xB?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Axial Relations*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o7SoC0YKPviJGxAlKc3iLow?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Review of* A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional Linguistics*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Q6cMCgZ0N1iPA3znrIZSwdl?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Deploying Functional Grammar*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/XqjtCjZ1N7ilnrxk2CxDGVr?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Working With Discourse*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/QT9xCk81N9tYOEJZ7c0vy1O?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Bateman's Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/7D4uClx1NjiO2rYDyhN8ReA?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Lexicogrammatical Cartography*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/X5B1CmO5glu1jxQGZuwwjRn?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>

Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/WuJZCnx1jnil7ERQzCzAJoD?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>

Learning From Mistakes
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gPICCoV1kpflrnyJMCmYGF7?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Primate Dominance Strategies
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/akSOCp81lrtQn2RPGI9ejaB?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL Community
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3rCOCq71mwfL8QMGDugOTmA?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/O2ucCr81nytw8qBXpc5tNMS?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>

Sample SFL Analyses
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/8epBCvl1rKiO79koGhPJ1XO?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/RVmCCwV1vMf0GjwX7UznB_K?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

General SFL Matters
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/iKW7CxngwOfm1lWKyhmHC-9?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>

Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/mY5MCyojxQT6r1BEgiL8Gg7?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>

Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/_mUPCzvkyVC8M1jv3UyIJYl?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>

The Opposite of Social Media
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/E4TwCANpgjCrNQDMgUyKv9H?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>

====================================

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 22:55, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

That was the joke... *whose hat? – England’s king’s*, or *whose king’s
hat? – England’s*

Now I have to explain the punchline ;-/

In both interpretations, group and word rank can be analysed in a single
display

Whose king’s hat?

[image: A white background with black text Description automatically
generated]

a and #b are symbols for Head and Modifier, so no need to restate. The
hash # means non-recursive (only one ‘s). So subjacent duplexes rather than
hypotactic series.

The other interpretation is more structurally complex. It isn’t a
hypotactic series because the Deictic is realised  by an embedded nom gp
[*England’s
king*], which itself has a Deictic Thing structure.

Whose hat?

This would have blown dear old Peter Matthews’ fuse.

David

*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 9:39 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

What explanatory advantage does the subjacency duplex analysis provide
over the Standard Model?

dr chris cléirigh

*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

— John Ruskin

====================================

Some Of My Sites

Review of *Subjacency Duplexes*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Dnp1C5QPXJigZJrOoczRh6c?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/m7UXC6XQ4LfVrN4xEI6hq10?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Factoring Out Structure*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/H90FC71R2NTEAgB9vuB3Crl?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Embodied Meaning*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/CZNLC81V0PTO6GyxlhMI2iS?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Lexis As Most Local Context*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2mrRC91WPRTRk0wPvfPX6xB?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Axial Relations*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o7SoC0YKPviJGxAlKc3iLow?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Review of* A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional Linguistics*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Q6cMCgZ0N1iPA3znrIZSwdl?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Deploying Functional Grammar*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/XqjtCjZ1N7ilnrxk2CxDGVr?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Working With Discourse*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/QT9xCk81N9tYOEJZ7c0vy1O?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Bateman's Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/7D4uClx1NjiO2rYDyhN8ReA?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Lexicogrammatical Cartography*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/X5B1CmO5glu1jxQGZuwwjRn?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>

Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/WuJZCnx1jnil7ERQzCzAJoD?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>

Learning From Mistakes
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gPICCoV1kpflrnyJMCmYGF7?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Primate Dominance Strategies
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/akSOCp81lrtQn2RPGI9ejaB?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL Community
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3rCOCq71mwfL8QMGDugOTmA?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/O2ucCr81nytw8qBXpc5tNMS?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>

Sample SFL Analyses
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/8epBCvl1rKiO79koGhPJ1XO?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/RVmCCwV1vMf0GjwX7UznB_K?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

General SFL Matters
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/iKW7CxngwOfm1lWKyhmHC-9?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>

Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/mY5MCyojxQT6r1BEgiL8Gg7?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>

Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/_mUPCzvkyVC8M1jv3UyIJYl?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>

The Opposite of Social Media
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/E4TwCANpgjCrNQDMgUyKv9H?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>

====================================

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 16:07, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Hi Rosemary

Pin Wang and Michael Cummings are *þa lareowas* for OE.

Nominative, genitive and dative cover a lot of ground don’t they? The
names are vaguely functional, but they denote forms with multiple varying
functions.

Wouldn’t you like to see SFL sweep away the baggage of latinate morpheme
labels, and start anew from functions? Then we could call it a possessive
Deictic, realised by a nom gp with possessive function marker. It’s then
irrelevant if the marker has the same form as a different function.

I think what’s Whorfian are the reactances, that function differently in
different structures, e.g.

*England’s king* and *the king of England* might both be called
possessive, but they are different structures...

;-)

How does OE handle *the king of England’s hat*?

:David

*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Rosemary Huisman <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 12:55 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

Hi David,

Another difficulty of grammatical analysis resulting from the effacement
of Old English morphology in Modern English? Whorf's covert trace?

In Old English, a noun group within a noun group.

The morphology of the Head noun is determined by its function in the
clause. The morphology of the "enclosed" noun group remains the genitive.

Eg, with masculine nominative case for Head noun

*þæs cyninges þegen "the king's thane"  The king's thane [came into the
hall].*

*þæs cyninges biscopas "the king's bishops" *

*Or eg with masculine dative (no preposition in OE):*

*[He sent a message] to the king's thane.   þæs cyninges þegene.*

*[He sent a message] to the king's bishops. þæs cyninges biscopum.*

Best,

Rosemary.

------------------------------

*From:* asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Saturday, 23 March 2024 9:56 AM
*To:* asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [asflanet] Halliday's response to criticism

This seems to be the last time MAKH took the time to respond to
criticisms of his work – 1966! It’s interesting for many reasons, amongst
which...

- how much of the theory was already in place

- what it shows of his reasoning and positioning in prior lx

- how stressful he found it, which shows in occasional annoyance and
yes, sarcasm, ‘Matthews' crusading zeal on the part of those he considers
less able to look after themselves seems to have led him to think it has
never been questioned’ ;-)

- how much of the criticism is ostensibly about names, ‘to the extent
that his objections are purely terminological they could of course be
accommodated if one knew what they were’.

- the critical gambit of putting words in one’s mouth, and his bemused
response, ‘There remains the question of *the king of England's hat*,
where Matthews has invented a problem on my behalf by insisting that either
*the
king of England* or *'s *must be a word.’

If Matthews were around today, what would he make of this?

[image: A close-up of a document Description automatically generated]

Happy weekend reading

:David

References:
- [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
  - From: Bradley Smith

[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

Other related posts: