Rome’s bishop’s nose doesn't have quite the same oomph ay
I hope you’re following Joseph Merrick’s lead to put your head in a bag
https://atmos.earth/this-genocide-is-about-oil/
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Robert Spence <robert.allan.spence@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sunday, 24 March 2024 at 9:20 am
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
David,
I didn't mean the one on your face, I meant the one on your plate.
In my first few weeks living in a German-speaking environment, I visited a
medical student (who was the son of a professor of medicine) and I noticed that
he had a skull on his desk. I pointed to the skull and asked "Gehörte das zu
deinem Vater?" ("Did that belong to your father?") but should have asked
"Gehörte das deinem Vater?". The first would have meant the skull was part of
his father's body, rather than just part of his possessions.
But the parson's nose image itself was prompted by seeing my own nose on
Friday, just two weeks after its reconstruction following four unsuccessful
attempts to remove a basal cell carcinoma plus one final, successful, but
radical attempt. I currently have part of my forehead attached to the side of
my nose -- and it literally looks like nothing more than the rear end of a
stuffed chook. Also, I think the "the parson's nose" example is in Quirk,
Greenbaum, Leech and Svartvik. Not sure.
In the Prottier-than-Thou stakes: there was a teacher at my school who spoke
with a Northern Irish accent and who never tired of explaining that the Pope
should actually never be referred to as the Pope, but rather as "the bishop of
Rome" (I can't remember whether "bishop" was allowed an initial capital).
Apparently a law to this effect had at some stage been passed in England, but
I'm not sure how savagely it was enforced.
A new law in Germany means that you can be arrested for just about any snippet
of language that refers to a place called "Palestine" while also mentioning two
bodies of water that bound its extent.
Interesting times.
-- Rob
On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 22:51, David Rose
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Not unless my nose resembles the tail of a plucked chicken (referred to in my
Prottie family as the pope’s nose)
I’ll have you know that it grows more patrician by the decade. In our extended
family it’s known as the Rose nose
But it’s interesting that possession can subclassify, no?
David
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Robert Spence
<robert.allan.spence@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:robert.allan.spence@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 11:32 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
David,
Is the last one like
David Rose's parson's nose
?
No implication of religiosity, but an implicit denial of veg(etari)anism.
On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 13:22, David Rose
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I should add an alternative analysis for whose king’s hat? that treats
subclassification of the Thing as a potentially recursive word complex (after
Martin, Doran, Zhang). Here’s king’s subclassifies hat. The Thing is not just a
hat, it’s a king’s hat.
[cid:ii_18e6d4e6767692e336]
Martin, J. R., Doran, Y. J., & Zhang, D. (2021). Nominal group grammar: System
and structure. Word, 67(3), 248-280.
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 10:55 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
That was the joke... whose hat? – England’s king’s, or whose king’s hat? –
England’s
Now I have to explain the punchline ;-/
In both interpretations, group and word rank can be analysed in a single display
Whose king’s hat?
[A white background with black text Description automatically generated]
• and •• are symbols for Head and Modifier, so no need to restate. The hash #
means non-recursive (only one ‘s). So subjacent duplexes rather than hypotactic
series.
The other interpretation is more structurally complex. It isn’t a hypotactic
series because the Deictic is realised by an embedded nom gp [England’s king],
which itself has a Deictic Thing structure.
Whose hat?
[cid:ii_18e6d4e67675b16b25]
This would have blown dear old Peter Matthews’ fuse.
David
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 9:39 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
What explanatory advantage does the subjacency duplex analysis provide over the
Standard Model?
[cid:ii_18e6d4e67672c91aec3]
dr chris cléirigh
To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.
— John Ruskin
====================================
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On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 16:07, David Rose
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Rosemary
Pin Wang and Michael Cummings are þa lareowas for OE.
Nominative, genitive and dative cover a lot of ground don’t they? The names are
vaguely functional, but they denote forms with multiple varying functions.
Wouldn’t you like to see SFL sweep away the baggage of latinate morpheme
labels, and start anew from functions? Then we could call it a possessive
Deictic, realised by a nom gp with possessive function marker. It’s then
irrelevant if the marker has the same form as a different function.
I think what’s Whorfian are the reactances, that function differently in
different structures, e.g.
England’s king and the king of England might both be called possessive, but
they are different structures...
[cid:ii_18e6d4e67675b16b22]
;-)
How does OE handle the king of England’s hat?
:David
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Rosemary Huisman
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 12:55 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
Hi David,
Another difficulty of grammatical analysis resulting from the effacement of Old
English morphology in Modern English? Whorf's covert trace?
In Old English, a noun group within a noun group.
The morphology of the Head noun is determined by its function in the clause.
The morphology of the "enclosed" noun group remains the genitive.
Eg, with masculine nominative case for Head noun
þæs cyninges þegen "the king's thane" The king's thane [came into the hall].
þæs cyninges biscopas "the king's bishops"
Or eg with masculine dative (no preposition in OE):
[He sent a message] to the king's thane. þæs cyninges þegene.
[He sent a message] to the king's bishops. þæs cyninges biscopum.
Best,
Rosemary.
________________________________
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2024 9:56 AM
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Halliday's response to criticism
This seems to be the last time MAKH took the time to respond to criticisms of
his work – 1966! It’s interesting for many reasons, amongst which...
- how much of the theory was already in place
- what it shows of his reasoning and positioning in prior lx
- how stressful he found it, which shows in occasional annoyance and yes,
sarcasm, ‘Matthews' crusading zeal on the part of those he considers less able
to look after themselves seems to have led him to think it has never been
questioned’ ;-)
- how much of the criticism is ostensibly about names, ‘to the extent that his
objections are purely terminological they could of course be accommodated if
one knew what they were’.
- the critical gambit of putting words in one’s mouth, and his bemused
response, ‘There remains the question of the king of England's hat, where
Matthews has invented a problem on my behalf by insisting that either the king
of England or 's must be a word.’
If Matthews were around today, what would he make of this?
[A close-up of a document Description automatically generated]
Happy weekend reading
:David