[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

  • From: "David Rose" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ("david.rose")
  • To: "asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 09:55:44 +0000

An example closer to home might be the persistent marginalisation of SFL in 
international linguistics. The people ignoring or locking it out of courses and 
departments all have PhDs in linguistic reasoning.
Couldn’t resist sharing this re comparing theories...
‘There is a distinct difference between having an open mind and having a hole 
in your head from which your brain leaks out’.
David

From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf 
of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Monday, 25 March 2024 at 3:35 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
Yes, I agree. I don't think explanatory potential and validity can be excised 
from consciousness either.
After all, it is consciousness that enacts the propositions of theory,
and consciousness that interpersonally assesses them for explanatory potential 
and validity.

So when it comes down to choosing between theories,
say, Newton's or Einstein's construal of gravity,
it comes down to feelings:
which one the community feels happier with.

Perhaps a more appropriate example would be a fundamentalist religious community
choosing between Natural Selection and Creationism
on the basis of which one they feel happier with.


dr chris cléirigh
To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.
 — John Ruskin

====================================
Some Of My Sites
Review of Subjacency 
Duplexes<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/lGzlCxngwOfm1E6Vyc81X-p?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>
Review of Modelling Paralanguage Using 
SFS<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2gtqCyojxQT6rOvwgcMQBWF?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of Factoring Out 
Structure<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/4IrsCzvkyVC8MWlZ3igtz6M?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>
Review of Embodied 
Meaning<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qWDSCANpgjCrNpyXgUYFgCj?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of Lexis As Most Local 
Context<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/pkVGCBNqjlCP7WQr1cW8DLI?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>
Review of Axial 
Relations<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/sq4YCD1vlpTj5Y2z1hkObU9?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>
Review of A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional 
Linguistics<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/A2nYCE8wmrt134r2mcBqNe5?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Deploying Functional 
Grammar<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/rJtvCGv0oyCW13xRmFYAzHX?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>
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Discourse<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/FY8ECJyBrGfpq9GvRFkh0s-?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Bateman's Review of English 
Text<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/jiHECK1DvKT827gNliQ7RCQ?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Lexicogrammatical 
Cartography<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/TZ-fCL7EwMfNRBxrAtAxxaq?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>
Review of English 
Text<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3-AwCMwGxOtxqBK1gI9_2QB?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>
Learning From 
Mistakes<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/j-LRCNLJyQUV0kK8AF7wQ2N?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>
Primate Dominance 
Strategies<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/AjmOCOMKzVT5p1VjJcpn5G_?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>
The Culture of the SFL 
Community<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2IAlCP7LAXfvKzYROuPalgT?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>
SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/rfLSCQnMBZfBkvGp8cYYfDS?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>
Sample SFL 
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Intellectual Applications of SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/kMWnCXLW2mUBXEvR1c2kKit?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>
Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/J07wCYW8NockLVRqQTlAZGI?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>
The Opposite of Social 
Media<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3k1ECZY1NqiP5KZLEck7yRC?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>
====================================


On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 at 14:31, David Rose 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I don't believe those theoretical ideals can be excised from the embodied 
consciousness that produces them, as Edelman teaches us and you wrote about so 
brilliantly all those years ago, in terms of homeostasis. No matter how loftily 
we ideationalise our criteria for validity, it still comes down to feelings. 
Perhaps the loftier the criteria, the more feelings we invest.

From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Monday, 25 March 2024 at 11:53 am
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
So theorising is more about affiliation;
less about relative explanatory potential and valid reasoning,
and more about being bound together as a community
by the interpretations of the theory produced by the community.
And these interpretations serve as icons that the community can rally around 
and should celebrate.


dr chris cléirigh
To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.
 — John Ruskin

====================================
Some Of My Sites
Review of Subjacency 
Duplexes<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/lGzlCxngwOfm1E6Vyc81X-p?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>
Review of Modelling Paralanguage Using 
SFS<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2gtqCyojxQT6rOvwgcMQBWF?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of Factoring Out 
Structure<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/4IrsCzvkyVC8MWlZ3igtz6M?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>
Review of Embodied 
Meaning<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qWDSCANpgjCrNpyXgUYFgCj?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of Lexis As Most Local 
Context<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/pkVGCBNqjlCP7WQr1cW8DLI?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>
Review of Axial 
Relations<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/sq4YCD1vlpTj5Y2z1hkObU9?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>
Review of A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional 
Linguistics<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/A2nYCE8wmrt134r2mcBqNe5?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Deploying Functional 
Grammar<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/rJtvCGv0oyCW13xRmFYAzHX?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>
Review of Working With 
Discourse<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/FY8ECJyBrGfpq9GvRFkh0s-?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Bateman's Review of English 
Text<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/jiHECK1DvKT827gNliQ7RCQ?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Lexicogrammatical 
Cartography<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/TZ-fCL7EwMfNRBxrAtAxxaq?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>
Review of English 
Text<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3-AwCMwGxOtxqBK1gI9_2QB?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>
Learning From 
Mistakes<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/j-LRCNLJyQUV0kK8AF7wQ2N?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>
Primate Dominance 
Strategies<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/AjmOCOMKzVT5p1VjJcpn5G_?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>
The Culture of the SFL 
Community<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2IAlCP7LAXfvKzYROuPalgT?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>
SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/rfLSCQnMBZfBkvGp8cYYfDS?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>
Sample SFL 
Analyses<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/enLhCROND2unv491JsL9fhU?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>
Answers to Analysis Questions on Email 
Lists<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/6pXCCVARKgC0xqr67ujEVhd?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>
General SFL 
Matters<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/P0SnCWLVXkUz5r7K2SlTcn-?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>
Intellectual Applications of SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/kMWnCXLW2mUBXEvR1c2kKit?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>
Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/J07wCYW8NockLVRqQTlAZGI?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>
The Opposite of Social 
Media<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3k1ECZY1NqiP5KZLEck7yRC?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>
====================================


On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 at 20:04, David Rose 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Yes, the question’s not about grammar is it? It’s about metalanguage, so the 
explanation is necessarily at the stratum of register. And it’s not just a 
question about the theory, and its uses in analyses, applications, publishing 
and teaching, but about the community of users that we’re privileged to belong 
to. It’s about belonging and authority... who has the authority to interpret, 
extend or enhance the theory and its applications, whose analyses should be 
celebrated by the community, who’s inside. The simple answer is all of us. We 
all belong to the community, and we all draw our repertoires from its reservoir 
of appliable theory. We’re all guided by each other. The answers I’ve given are 
the best I can do, so thanks for asking the questions.
“Aunty,” Jem spoke up, “Atticus says you can choose your friends but you sho’ 
can’t choose your family, an’ they’re still kin to you no matter whether you 
acknowledge ’em or not, and it makes you look right silly when you don’t.”
D

From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Sunday, 24 March 2024 at 3:19 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
So the obvious explanatory advantage of this grammatical analysis:
[cid:ii_18e73cc1662f0cbff1f6]
over this grammatical analysis:
[cid:ii_18e73cc16624dc67b7b7]
isn't grammatical at all. It's explanatory advantage is viewed from 'above' 
language, from the level of context:

F: a traditional multivariate Hallidayan analysis of nom gp functions, but with 
all realising syntagms accounted for, using subj dupl labels, and possessive 
suffixes explicitly labelled as non-recursive #b
M: clearly displays each structure:syntagm cycle at each rank
T: authority of a ‘standard analysis’ plus, and it’s counterexpectantly funnier

So what does the first analysis have that construes this context that the 
second analysis lacks?


dr chris cléirigh
To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.
 — John Ruskin

====================================
Some Of My Sites
Review of Modelling Paralanguage Using 
SFS<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2gtqCyojxQT6rOvwgcMQBWF?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of Axial 
Relations<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/sq4YCD1vlpTj5Y2z1hkObU9?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>
Learning From 
Mistakes<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/j-LRCNLJyQUV0kK8AF7wQ2N?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>
Primate Dominance 
Strategies<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/AjmOCOMKzVT5p1VjJcpn5G_?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>
The Culture of the SFL 
Community<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2IAlCP7LAXfvKzYROuPalgT?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>
Answers to Analysis Questions on Email 
Lists<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/6pXCCVARKgC0xqr67ujEVhd?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>
====================================


On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 at 08:45, David Rose 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I’d kinda hoped it was obvious, a linguistic double entendre
But OK, it’s a pleasant Sunday morning exercise that someone may find useful, 
evaluating field, mode, tenor
The full arguments are in...
Martin, J. R., & Doran, Y. J. (2023). Structure markers: A subjacency duplex 
analysis. Language, Context and Text, 5(1), 16-48.
Maybe Yaegan could post a pdf, as I can’t download through usyd?

This nom gp is ambiguous, with two different experiential interpretations. I 
offered three analyses...
1. Whose king’s hat? – counterexpectant interpretation
[A white rectangular box with black text    Description automatically generated]
F: a traditional multivariate Hallidayan analysis of nom gp functions, but with 
all realising syntagms accounted for, using subj dupl labels, and possessive 
suffixes explicitly labelled as non-recursive #•
M: clearly displays each structure:syntagm cycle at each rank
T: authority of a ‘standard analysis’ plus, and it’s counterexpectantly funnier

2. Whose king’s hat?
[cid:ii_18e73cc16625b16b29]
F: a re-analysis of nom gp classifying function, as recursive subclassification 
at word rank, rather than multivariate group functions (Classifier Thing)
M: displays complementarity of subjacent and hypotactic word rank structures
T: more radical, but interesting, potentially inspiring further research

3. Whose hat? – expectant interpretation
[A white rectangular object with black text    Description automatically 
generated]
F: more accurate than a ‘gamma beta alpha’ analysis, because this isn’t a 
hypotactic series. The Deictic is realised by an embedded nom gp [England’s 
king], which itself has a Deictic Thing structure
M: explicit syntagm labelling reveals this structuring
T: not as funny

David

From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 11:44 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
I'll try again.
What explanatory advantage does your analysis have
[cid:ii_18e73cc1662f0cbff1f6]
over the standard SFL analysis:
[cid:ii_18e73cc16624dc67b7b7]

dr chris cléirigh
To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.
 — John Ruskin

====================================
Some Of My Sites
Review of Subjacency 
Duplexes<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/lGzlCxngwOfm1E6Vyc81X-p?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>
Review of Modelling Paralanguage Using 
SFS<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2gtqCyojxQT6rOvwgcMQBWF?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of Factoring Out 
Structure<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/4IrsCzvkyVC8MWlZ3igtz6M?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>
Review of Embodied 
Meaning<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qWDSCANpgjCrNpyXgUYFgCj?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of Lexis As Most Local 
Context<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/pkVGCBNqjlCP7WQr1cW8DLI?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>
Review of Axial 
Relations<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/sq4YCD1vlpTj5Y2z1hkObU9?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>
Review of A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional 
Linguistics<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/A2nYCE8wmrt134r2mcBqNe5?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Deploying Functional 
Grammar<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/rJtvCGv0oyCW13xRmFYAzHX?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>
Review of Working With 
Discourse<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/FY8ECJyBrGfpq9GvRFkh0s-?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Bateman's Review of English 
Text<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/jiHECK1DvKT827gNliQ7RCQ?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Lexicogrammatical 
Cartography<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/TZ-fCL7EwMfNRBxrAtAxxaq?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>
Review of English 
Text<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3-AwCMwGxOtxqBK1gI9_2QB?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>
Learning From 
Mistakes<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/j-LRCNLJyQUV0kK8AF7wQ2N?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>
Primate Dominance 
Strategies<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/AjmOCOMKzVT5p1VjJcpn5G_?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>
The Culture of the SFL 
Community<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/2IAlCP7LAXfvKzYROuPalgT?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>
SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/rfLSCQnMBZfBkvGp8cYYfDS?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>
Sample SFL 
Analyses<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/enLhCROND2unv491JsL9fhU?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>
Answers to Analysis Questions on Email 
Lists<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/6pXCCVARKgC0xqr67ujEVhd?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>
General SFL 
Matters<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/P0SnCWLVXkUz5r7K2SlTcn-?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>
Intellectual Applications of SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/kMWnCXLW2mUBXEvR1c2kKit?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>
Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL 
Theory<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/J07wCYW8NockLVRqQTlAZGI?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>
The Opposite of Social 
Media<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3k1ECZY1NqiP5KZLEck7yRC?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>
====================================


On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 22:55, David Rose 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
That was the joke... whose hat? – England’s king’s, or whose king’s hat? – 
England’s
Now I have to explain the punchline ;-/
In both interpretations, group and word rank can be analysed in a single display

Whose king’s hat?
[A white background with black text    Description automatically generated]

• and •• are symbols for Head and Modifier, so no need to restate. The hash # 
means non-recursive (only one ‘s). So subjacent duplexes rather than hypotactic 
series.
The other interpretation is more structurally complex. It isn’t a hypotactic 
series because the Deictic is realised  by an embedded nom gp [England’s king], 
which itself has a Deictic Thing structure.

Whose hat?
[cid:ii_18e73cc16625b16b25]

This would have blown dear old Peter Matthews’ fuse.
David

From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 9:39 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
What explanatory advantage does the subjacency duplex analysis provide over the 
Standard Model?

[cid:ii_18e73cc16612c91aec3]

dr chris cléirigh
To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.
 — John Ruskin

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====================================


On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 16:07, David Rose 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Rosemary
Pin Wang and Michael Cummings are þa lareowas for OE.
Nominative, genitive and dative cover a lot of ground don’t they? The names are 
vaguely functional, but they denote forms with multiple varying functions.
Wouldn’t you like to see SFL sweep away the baggage of latinate morpheme 
labels, and start anew from functions? Then we could call it a possessive 
Deictic, realised by a nom gp with possessive function marker. It’s then 
irrelevant if the marker has the same form as a different function.
I think what’s Whorfian are the reactances, that function differently in 
different structures, e.g.
England’s king and the king of England might both be called possessive, but 
they are different structures...

[cid:ii_18e73cc16615b16b22]
;-)
How does OE handle the king of England’s hat?
:David

From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of Rosemary Huisman 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 12:55 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism
Hi David,

Another difficulty of grammatical analysis resulting from the effacement of Old 
English morphology in Modern English? Whorf's covert trace?


In Old English, a noun group within a noun group.

The morphology of the Head noun is determined by its function in the clause. 
The morphology of the "enclosed" noun group remains the genitive.

Eg, with masculine nominative case for Head noun

þæs cyninges þegen "the king's thane"  The king's thane [came into the hall].

þæs cyninges biscopas "the king's bishops"

Or eg with masculine dative (no preposition in OE):

[He sent a message] to the king's thane.   þæs cyninges þegene.

[He sent a message] to the king's bishops. þæs cyninges biscopum.
Best,
Rosemary.

________________________________
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2024 9:56 AM
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Halliday's response to criticism


This seems to be the last time MAKH took the time to respond to criticisms of 
his work – 1966! It’s interesting for many reasons, amongst which...

- how much of the theory was already in place

- what it shows of his reasoning and positioning in prior lx

- how stressful he found it, which shows in occasional annoyance and yes, 
sarcasm, ‘Matthews' crusading zeal on the part of those he considers less able 
to look after themselves seems to have led him to think it has never been 
questioned’ ;-)

- how much of the criticism is ostensibly about names, ‘to the extent that his 
objections are purely terminological they could of course be accommodated if 
one knew what they were’.

- the critical gambit of putting words in one’s mouth, and his bemused 
response, ‘There remains the question of the king of England's hat, where 
Matthews has invented a problem on my behalf by insisting that either the king 
of England or 's must be a word.’



If Matthews were around today, what would he make of this?



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Happy weekend reading

:David


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