[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

  • From: Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 11:52:02 +1100

So theorising is more about affiliation;
less about relative explanatory potential and valid reasoning,
and more about being bound together as a community
by the interpretations of the theory produced by the community.
And these interpretations serve as icons that the community can rally
around and should celebrate.

dr chris cléirigh
*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

 — John Ruskin

====================================
Some Of My Sites
Review of *Subjacency Duplexes* <https://subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>
Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of *Factoring Out Structure* <https://yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>
Review of *Embodied Meaning* <https://sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>
Review of *Lexis As Most Local Context*
<https://lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>
Review of *Axial Relations* <https://axial-relations.blogspot.com/>
Review of* A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional Linguistics*
<http://cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of *Deploying Functional Grammar*
<https://deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>
Review of *Working With Discourse*
<http://workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of Bateman's Review of *English Text*
<http://master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>
Review of *Lexicogrammatical Cartography*
<https://lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>
Review of *English Text* <http://discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>
Learning From Mistakes <http://thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>
Primate Dominance Strategies <https://attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>
The Culture of the SFL Community <https://whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>
SFL Theory <http://systemictheory.blogspot.com/>
Sample SFL Analyses <http://sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>
Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<http://sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>
General SFL Matters <http://thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>
Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<http://informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>
Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>
The Opposite of Social Media <https://mental-projection.blogspot.com/>
====================================


On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 at 20:04, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Yes, the question’s not about grammar is it? It’s about metalanguage, so
the explanation is necessarily at the stratum of register. And it’s not
just a question about the theory, and its uses in analyses, applications,
publishing and teaching, but about the community of users that we’re
privileged to belong to. It’s about belonging and authority... who has the
authority to interpret, extend or enhance the theory and its applications,
whose analyses should be celebrated by the community, who’s inside. The
simple answer is all of us. We all belong to the community, and we all draw
our repertoires from its reservoir of appliable theory. We’re all guided by
each other. The answers I’ve given are the best I can do, so thanks for
asking the questions.

“Aunty,” Jem spoke up, “Atticus says you can choose your friends but you
sho’ can’t choose your family, an’ they’re still kin to you no matter
whether you acknowledge ’em or not, and it makes you look right silly when
you don’t.”

D



*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Sunday, 24 March 2024 at 3:19 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

So the obvious explanatory advantage of this grammatical analysis:

over this grammatical analysis:

isn't grammatical at all. It's explanatory advantage is viewed from
'above' language, from the level of context:



F: a traditional multivariate Hallidayan analysis of nom gp functions, but
with all realising syntagms accounted for, using subj dupl labels, and
possessive suffixes explicitly labelled as non-recursive #b

M: clearly displays each structure:syntagm cycle at each rank

T: authority of a ‘standard analysis’ plus, and it’s counterexpectantly
funnier



So what does the first analysis have that construes this context that the
second analysis lacks?



dr chris cléirigh

*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

 — John Ruskin

====================================

Some Of My Sites

Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/PwsdCXLW2mUBXxk2Zs6Ih49?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Axial Relations*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/-vPeCYW8NockLzjMXIGTBdj?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Learning From Mistakes
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o0p4CZY1NqiP53XlYSKufCR?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Primate Dominance Strategies
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/eebEC1WLPxcnM7L3XfXYmER?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL Community
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Q1-IC2xMQziKpN01QF994gl?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/dB3ZC3QNPBi7p5Wqvcv7MFR?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

====================================





On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 at 08:45, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I’d kinda hoped it was obvious, a linguistic double entendre

But OK, it’s a pleasant Sunday morning exercise that someone may find
useful, evaluating field, mode, tenor

The full arguments are in...

Martin, J. R., & Doran, Y. J. (2023). Structure markers: A subjacency
duplex analysis. *Language, Context and Text*, *5*(1), 16-48.

Maybe Yaegan could post a pdf, as I can’t download through usyd?



This nom gp is ambiguous, with two different experiential interpretations.
I offered three analyses...

1. Whose king’s hat? – counterexpectant interpretation

[image: A white rectangular box with black text Description automatically
generated]

F: a traditional multivariate Hallidayan analysis of nom gp functions, but
with all realising syntagms accounted for, using subj dupl labels, and
possessive suffixes explicitly labelled as non-recursive #b

M: clearly displays each structure:syntagm cycle at each rank

T: authority of a ‘standard analysis’ plus, and it’s counterexpectantly
funnier



2. Whose king’s hat?

F: a re-analysis of nom gp classifying function, as recursive
subclassification at word rank, rather than multivariate group functions
(Classifier Thing)

M: displays complementarity of subjacent and hypotactic word rank
structures

T: more radical, but interesting, potentially inspiring further research



3. Whose hat? – expectant interpretation

[image: A white rectangular object with black text Description
automatically generated]

F: more accurate than a ‘gamma beta alpha’ analysis, because this isn’t a
hypotactic series. The Deictic is realised by an embedded nom gp [*England’s
king*], which itself has a Deictic Thing structure

M: explicit syntagm labelling reveals this structuring

T: not as funny



David



*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 11:44 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

I'll try again.

What explanatory advantage does your analysis have

over the standard SFL analysis:

dr chris cléirigh

*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

 — John Ruskin

====================================

Some Of My Sites

Review of *Subjacency Duplexes*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/UuPlC4QOPEiYBpRgxTjk_1E?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/PwsdCXLW2mUBXxk2Zs6Ih49?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Factoring Out Structure*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/sfuQC5QPXJigZVwE1FluWMD?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Embodied Meaning*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/lN-mC6XQ4LfVrnZzJf9TnF3?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Lexis As Most Local Context*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/1_1jC71R2NTEAOnlYckibUr?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Axial Relations*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/-vPeCYW8NockLzjMXIGTBdj?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Review of* A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional Linguistics*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/GkMsC81V0PTO67B1gF4E4eA?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Deploying Functional Grammar*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/YSaSC91WPRTRk5rQjHB513P?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Working With Discourse*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/uEp0C0YKPviJGRYVzUBaP_-?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Bateman's Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/alluCgZ0N1iPAL49JSPurXC?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Lexicogrammatical Cartography*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/JUPpCjZ1N7iln7Z80IGr7r3?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>

Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/dF6ECk81N9tYOMo9vT429ZE?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>

Learning From Mistakes
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o0p4CZY1NqiP53XlYSKufCR?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Primate Dominance Strategies
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/eebEC1WLPxcnM7L3XfXYmER?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL Community
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Q1-IC2xMQziKpN01QF994gl?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/mOZdClx1NjiO2B6xlFKUvPc?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>

Sample SFL Analyses
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/_Ar4CmO5glu1jmkzqh0unSX?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/dB3ZC3QNPBi7p5Wqvcv7MFR?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

General SFL Matters
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gN2aCnx1jnil7JrvVIjuUg6?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>

Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gpZnCoV1kpflr76EmIjnNYH?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>

Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3HBuCp81lrtQnjpmZh1IK9q?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>

The Opposite of Social Media
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/x1thCq71mwfL8pJZvCz7M5l?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>

====================================





On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 22:55, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

That was the joke... *whose hat? – England’s king’s*, or *whose king’s
hat? – England’s*

Now I have to explain the punchline ;-/

In both interpretations, group and word rank can be analysed in a single
display



Whose king’s hat?

[image: A white background with black text Description automatically
generated]



a and #b are symbols for Head and Modifier, so no need to restate. The
hash # means non-recursive (only one ‘s). So subjacent duplexes rather than
hypotactic series.

The other interpretation is more structurally complex. It isn’t a
hypotactic series because the Deictic is realised  by an embedded nom gp 
[*England’s
king*], which itself has a Deictic Thing structure.



Whose hat?



This would have blown dear old Peter Matthews’ fuse.

David



*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 9:39 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

What explanatory advantage does the subjacency duplex analysis provide
over the Standard Model?



dr chris cléirigh

*To make your children capable of honesty is the beginning of education.*

 — John Ruskin

====================================

Some Of My Sites

Review of *Subjacency Duplexes*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/UuPlC4QOPEiYBpRgxTjk_1E?domain=subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Modelling Paralanguage Using SFS*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/PwsdCXLW2mUBXxk2Zs6Ih49?domain=modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Factoring Out Structure*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/sfuQC5QPXJigZVwE1FluWMD?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Embodied Meaning*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/lN-mC6XQ4LfVrnZzJf9TnF3?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Lexis As Most Local Context*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/1_1jC71R2NTEAOnlYckibUr?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Axial Relations*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/-vPeCYW8NockLzjMXIGTBdj?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Review of* A Theory of Syntax for Systemic Functional Linguistics*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/GkMsC81V0PTO67B1gF4E4eA?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Deploying Functional Grammar*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/YSaSC91WPRTRk5rQjHB513P?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>

Review of *Working With Discourse*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/uEp0C0YKPviJGRYVzUBaP_-?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Bateman's Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/alluCgZ0N1iPAL49JSPurXC?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of *Lexicogrammatical Cartography*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/JUPpCjZ1N7iln7Z80IGr7r3?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>

Review of *English Text*
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/dF6ECk81N9tYOMo9vT429ZE?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>

Learning From Mistakes
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/o0p4CZY1NqiP53XlYSKufCR?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Primate Dominance Strategies
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/eebEC1WLPxcnM7L3XfXYmER?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL Community
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/Q1-IC2xMQziKpN01QF994gl?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/mOZdClx1NjiO2B6xlFKUvPc?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>

Sample SFL Analyses
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/_Ar4CmO5glu1jmkzqh0unSX?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email Lists
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/dB3ZC3QNPBi7p5Wqvcv7MFR?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

General SFL Matters
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gN2aCnx1jnil7JrvVIjuUg6?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>

Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/gpZnCoV1kpflr76EmIjnNYH?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>

Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL Theory
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3HBuCp81lrtQnjpmZh1IK9q?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>

The Opposite of Social Media
<https://url.au.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/x1thCq71mwfL8pJZvCz7M5l?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>

====================================





On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 16:07, David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Hi Rosemary

Pin Wang and Michael Cummings are *þa lareowas* for OE.

Nominative, genitive and dative cover a lot of ground don’t they? The
names are vaguely functional, but they denote forms with multiple varying
functions.

Wouldn’t you like to see SFL sweep away the baggage of latinate morpheme
labels, and start anew from functions? Then we could call it a possessive
Deictic, realised by a nom gp with possessive function marker. It’s then
irrelevant if the marker has the same form as a different function.

I think what’s Whorfian are the reactances, that function differently in
different structures, e.g.

*England’s king* and *the king of England* might both be called
possessive, but they are different structures...



;-)

How does OE handle *the king of England’s hat*?

:David



*From: *asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Rosemary Huisman <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Saturday, 23 March 2024 at 12:55 pm
*To: *asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[asflanet] Re: Halliday's response to criticism

Hi David,



Another difficulty of grammatical analysis resulting from the effacement
of Old English morphology in Modern English? Whorf's covert trace?



In Old English, a noun group within a noun group.

The morphology of the Head noun is determined by its function in the
clause. The morphology of the "enclosed" noun group remains the genitive.

Eg, with masculine nominative case for Head noun

*þæs cyninges þegen "the king's thane"  The king's thane [came into the
hall].*

*þæs cyninges biscopas "the king's bishops" *

*Or eg with masculine dative (no preposition in OE):*

*[He sent a message] to the king's thane.   þæs cyninges þegene.*

*[He sent a message] to the king's bishops. þæs cyninges biscopum.*

Best,

Rosemary.


------------------------------

*From:* asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Saturday, 23 March 2024 9:56 AM
*To:* asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [asflanet] Halliday's response to criticism



This seems to be the last time MAKH took the time to respond to criticisms
of his work – 1966! It’s interesting for many reasons, amongst which...

- how much of the theory was already in place

- what it shows of his reasoning and positioning in prior lx

- how stressful he found it, which shows in occasional annoyance and yes,
sarcasm, ‘Matthews' crusading zeal on the part of those he considers less
able to look after themselves seems to have led him to think it has never
been questioned’ ;-)

- how much of the criticism is ostensibly about names, ‘to the extent that
his objections are purely terminological they could of course be
accommodated if one knew what they were’.

- the critical gambit of putting words in one’s mouth, and his bemused
response, ‘There remains the question of *the king of England's hat*,
where Matthews has invented a problem on my behalf by insisting that either 
*the
king of England* or *'s *must be a word.’



If Matthews were around today, what would he make of this?



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Happy weekend reading

:David




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