[THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers

I am just amazed that you two have enough spare time to argue about this.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucas Boyken [mailto:lboyken@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: June 13, 2003 9:31 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers


Final Reply to Neil,

I don't want to waste any more space in this discussion group.
Therefore, I will say to you Neil...you are right.  Microsoft is
untouchable, should never be question...in fact the whole industry is
that way...who am I to question them...certainly I am not you.
Therefore, I will keep my "ignorant" comments to myself.  Thank you for
the lively discussion.

Respectfully,

Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone:  800.222.7601
Office Phone:  515.332.2751
Fax:  515.332.5687


-----Original Message-----
From: Braebaum, Neil [mailto:Neil.Braebaum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:18 AM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucas Boyken [mailto:lboyken@xxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: 12 June 2003 18:48
> To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers
>=20
> Microsoft has become a slave not only to previous code they
> have written, but to a certain extent, the code that others=20
> write.

They will not be held accountable (either in a general sense, or a
specific
one) for faults or flaws, that are due to bugs in other vendors'
products.

Try it and see, if you don't believe me.

Whether some people ignorant of the facts and reality would
over-generalise and dispute it, or otherwise, the fact remains.

Sure, some CEO of a company may like to blame them, because that's the
big name he knows, but if the fault is due to some 3rd party code, it's
due to some 3rd party code.

> Sure, they have "standards" and certain procedures
> that are in place to help Application Manufactures to have a=20
> higher likelihood that their applications will run in many=20
> different scenarios.  However, they are...like every other=20
> company in the free market society in which we=20
> live...somewhat controlled by what people want, desire, and=20
> demand. Customers demand things to work right, all the time,=20
> especially when their money is the money being spent.

Indeed.

They don't get into (in general) resolving other vendors' bugs.

If you want guaranteed reliability, there is an option there - but
Microsoft
*don't* provide it directly.

That option is Datacenter (for Windows 2000). And it's provided by OEMs.
How would you imagine, they go about guarantees? What, would you
imagine, they do to ensure the stability of their platform?

> With this mantality, Free Market Economy customers also start
> to grey over the ownership of problems, especially when it=20
> comes to intellectual products such as programs.

It's not greyed at all - merely in some peoples' minds.

If you doubt it, you try getting Microsoft to respond and fix a problem,
or even accept responsibility for a fault due to the code in a 3rd party
app - go ahead and try it.

> Therefore,
> problems that occur...even if caused by an application=20
> problem, are related by these customers to the system on=20
> which they are operating.  Microsoft, at this point, might be=20
> the cause of the customer's problems (in their mind) or it=20
> could be their computer manufacture (because the application=20
> and OS are running on a particular brand of equipment).  As=20
> you can see, customers demand from manufactures unrealistic=20
> things at times.

Either you are most naive, or have a limited exposure to this.

I've worked for big businesses, that have used Microsoft products. If
there has been occasion where there has been instability problems, or
faults caused by 3rd party apps - Microsoft will assign blame correctly,
regardless of how high-up, or with what authority (either in ignorance,
or arrogance) the blame is obfuscated to be due to Microsoft's products.

I suspect they are not alone in this.

If you have a problem with an 3rd party application, and it's flaw is
due to an operating system issue - they, also, will assert the blame for
the fault in the right place, and won't accept responsibility, if it's
something outside of their control.

Ignorant perception of the masses may be one thing - "...if it's a PC,
it's a Microsoft problem...", or "...if it's Windows, it's a Microsoft
problem..." is one thing - but it'll fall on deaf ears, if it's not
their problem.

I'm not saying they won't be prepared to work *with* vendors, given the
right support options - but they certainly won't accept, or be held
accountable for faults or issues in other vendors code.

> These unrealistic demands drive the market place to produce
> better and better products.  It is my contention,=20
> unfortunately, that Microsoft has not been living up to these=20
> demands by the customer.

If such demands are bogus - then it's an unreasonable expectation.

As a customer, in general, the principle applies - if the company does
not meet my expectations, they have gone astray - *unless* my
expectations are unreasonable.

Neil

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