[THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers
- From: "Lucas Boyken" <lboyken@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:10:41 -0500
Tim,
We ran into a similar problem with a Terminal Server installed at a
client. They installed an AS/400 emulation program which really messed
with the server. When rebooting, it would hang on a flashing DOS
cursor. Never reboot, it would just sit there staring at me...making
fun of me. Anyways, the solution was simple...we removed the problem
application and the server was much happier after that. This
application also made it so after of a couple days of uptime, Internet
Explorer would just stop working. The world would spin in the corner
but no page or error would ever appear. Netscape, on the same machine,
would work fine after this problem started. Therefore, it is most
likely some application that has been loaded on the particular server if
it can't reboot properly. It might also be a flaky device driver that
is causing the system to become unstable at shutdown.
As far as your reply, I agree with you. I was, with the exchange
comment, only trying to make the point that all apps leak and the MS
OS's are extremely suseptable to poorly written apps. Thanks for
letting me continuely hop on my soap box.
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Mangan [mailto:tmangan@xxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 6:25 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers
Ah...
We are talking apples and oranges here! One suspects that exchange may
have been the source of the leaks - and since you only "closed it" when
the server was rebooted, the leak would only be cleaned up then. This
is different from what Bernd was talking about.
It is likely that shutting down Exchange and restarting it would have
solved the memory leak issue. In all honesty, restarting the server is
better because there is more to clean up than the memory leaks in
exchange. But, ***in general***, starting and closing a memory leaked
application will clean up the memory leak. The exception is when the
leak is in a system process that does not close when the application
closes.
All that said, I do have a 2k server that refuses to completely shut
down and I don't know why -- however I no longer care much either. When
asked to reboot or shutdown it hangs on the final background blue screen
(as opposed to BSOD). I have spent countless hours pursuing the cause
-- all to no avail. But the server is stable (it is basically used as a
file server) and only needs to be reset once a month or so for patches.
It never dies on it's own so I'm just not worried about unattended
reboots. Someday I'll probably get around to wiping it out and
reinstalling to eliminate the problem, but for now it just isn't worth
the pain.
tim
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Lucas Boyken
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 5:59 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers
As far as documented proof goes, I have some. However, I draw much of
what I say from expirience. When I worked on a military installation,
we had a Server Farm, in which about 12 Exchange servers resided. We
began with NT 4.0 and Exchange 5.5. The only application running on
these servers was Exchange 5.5. If we didn't do a weekly reboot of our
systems, they would end up running into odd errors. These systems, at
the time, were top of the line Dell 6300's with at least 2 Gb of RAM,
RAID 5 for the data container and RAID 1 for the system container
(different physical drives in each container). Each system was kept
very current with new firmware updates. With all that said, we still
had to reboot as a practice to avoid outages during the work week. After
upgrading the OS to Win2k server, the problem was occurred less.
However, we found that a bi-weekly reboot was needed. Therefore, I must
conclude from my expiriences there and many other places that if reboots
don't happen at least once a month on a Windows based server, you are
going to run into issues. We must all remember, Windows isn't Novell or
Unix. <--Of course this is an unfair statement...just want to get some
lively conversation going.
Later,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Bernd Harzog [mailto:Bernd.Harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 4:54 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers
Since we market a product (TScale) that reduces the amount of virtual
memory used by applications, we almost always get involved in
conversations with customers about how long they can go between reboots,
which is a function of how much their applications are leaking. So, we
have quite a bit of experience on this topic.
In GENERAL, Microsoft's products do not leak. There was an old version
of IIS that leaked pretty badly but that was a couple of years ago. The
major culprits of leaks are applications from everyone else, and in
particular internally developed applications.
Now if you want to pick on Microsoft for promoting a development
methodology that allows leaks, that is a different kettle of fish
altogether.
Cheers,
Bernd Harzog
CEO
RTO Software
678-455-5506 x701
bernd@xxxxxxxxxxx
www.rtosoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucas Boyken [mailto:lboyken@xxxxxxxxx]=3D3D20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 5:08 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers
Ok, since I've been taking some flack for the comments mentioning
Microsoft and their inefficient code, I must clarify. For all you out
there that simply LOVE Microsoft, they do have poorly written code.
However, if you examine the situation, context and subject of this
pointed comment, it is easy to understand why I expressed myself the way
I did. Microsoft is a Large corporation. The left brain doesn't always
talk to the right brain and vice versa. They write extremely complex
and time consuming programs that have millions of lines of code and
logic that at the end of the day must all fit together and work to a
certain level of proficiency or the whole thing is garbage. Yes,
Microsoft and every other programming company out there has a tough job.
With all that said, though, when you are on top of the Mountain (King
per say) you have to keep doing the job cleaner and better than everyone
else. It is simply my opinion that Microsoft could be doing a better
job. If they aren't careful, they will become a dinosaur and be seen
just as they saw IBM in the early 80's. Hopefully this clears the air a
little bit and all of you out there that take some kind of personal
offense to the comments I have made about Microsoft, well then...you
need help or something. They aren't your hometown baseball team or
anything...they are just another big American corporation trying to take
your money by making a product they think you need.
By the way, I'm not a Linux/Unix hacker/cracker. I'm just an average,
everyday computer consultant that has seen his fair share of many
different software companies make mistakes that makes my life harder. If
you make my life harder than it has to be, well, I'm going to say
something not so nice about you. Thank you.
Respectfully,
Lucas W. Boyken
Computer Systems Associates
Account Manager / Technical Representative
lboyken@xxxxxxxxx
Company Phone: 800.222.7601
Office Phone: 515.332.2751
Fax: 515.332.5687
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Lyne [mailto:Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D3D3D20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:53 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers
That's another point Im going to mention to them as well.
I have clients who run AS400's as transaction servers and every night =
=3D
=3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D they perform scheduled reboots on the OS to keep =
them
in =3D top shape. So =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D its not just a MS thing.
Tony Lyne
Senior Systems Engineer=3D3D3D3D20
Computerland Central=3D3D3D3D20
P O Box 1470=3D3D3D3D20
PALMERSTON NORTH
Telephone (+64) 06 3537300
Facsimile (+64) 06 3566800
Mobile (+64) 0274 720696
E-mail Tony.Lyne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Internet http://www.computerland.co.nz
CAUTION: This e-mail message and accompanying data may contain =3D3D3D3D
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-----Original Message-----
From: Braebaum, Neil [mailto:Neil.Braebaum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D3D3D3D20
Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2003 1:32 a.m.
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers
Comments inline...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucas Boyken [mailto:lboyken@xxxxxxxxx]=3D3D3D3D20
> Sent: 11 June 2003 14:21
> To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [THIN] Re: Rebooting Win2k Terminal servers =3D3D3D3D20
> If you want to attack this from a different angle, you =
might=3D3D3D3D20
be=3D3D3D20
>more successful. Try searching Technet or Microsoft.com=3D3D3D3D20 =
=3D3D
for=3D3D3D20
>"memory leaks" and "windows 2000" or "NT" and you will=3D3D3D3D20 see
that=3D3D3D20
>Microsoft, of course, has a long running history of=3D3D3D3D20 memory
leak=3D3D3D20
>problems. The only solution for these problems=3D3D3D3D20 since the =
=3D
late=3D20
>=3D3D
=3D3D3D
90's
>(98, NT) has been reboots. This is per=3D3D3D3D20 =
Microsoft's=3D3D3D20=3D20
>recommendations. =3D3D3D3D20 Also, researching clearing of RAM by =3D
cycling=3D20
>the machines=3D3D3D3D20 would be helpful. Really, this will get you=20
>to=3D20 the same=3D3D3D3D20 place I mentioned above. The overall need =
for=20
>=3D
reboots=3D20
>on a=3D3D3D3D20 Microsoft platform is due to the inefficient code=20
>that=3D20 has=3D3D3D3D20 been placed into their products.
In fairness, memory leaks can be in the domain of applications.
I'd agree, that poor garbage collection could be a cause, and that =3D
=3D3D3D3D Microsoft
*applications* can be as guilty as any other - but you've only to look =
=3D
=3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D at some Java implementations / applications, to
realise =3D that it's hardly =3D3D3D3D solely a Microsoft, nor an OS =
thing.
Neil
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