As Evan stated - if we didn't fool with mother nature, we wouldn't have German Shepherds at all. Nature prefers square bodies, hanging ears, straight stifles, etc. For as much as so many people hate angulated dogs, we could not keep even the moderate angulation without breeding to the more angulated dogs at least part of the time. As for health problems - these have always been around and always will. At least the majority of us are trying to breed them out of our lines, but "mother nature" seems to find a way to keep them around anyway <grin>. Janice Well, it never ceases to amaze the learning curve on the list. I recall about... oh, 2 years ago maybe more, saying that if left alone, the breed will revert back to the norm --- the middle. Square, straight but balanced angulation, etc. And oh man did I get lambasted... ha ha ha... fast forward, now it's an acceptable theory!! LOL The only part you got wrong is, hanging ears is not norm for "nature". Erect ears is norm --- wolves, foxes, wild dogs, etc., it is the norm for them to have erect ears --- it's only with mans intervention and preference and breeding it into those breeds with hanging ears that we have them. Now in regards to the point made about need of having "very-angulated" dogs in the breeding programs. I agree 100%. We need these animals that are on the extreme side of the pendulum to help us to fight the natural tendencies of the breed to swing to the "middle". These dogs are breeding tools, not show dogs. Regards, Kathaleen ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================