In a message dated 12/4/2005 3:43:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, Pamswan02@xxxxxxx writes: Pre Limb's are not always conclusive but you certainly have a better chance of knowing what you will end up with. Elbows are just as important. Heart,etc also. I still would like to see all stud dogs be OFA before entering in the ring. I would like to discuss some positive ways we could get this to come about, even if it takes my life time to see some progress here. I think you mean pre lim not before the dog has limbs. Most good breeders do pre lims and never breed unless the dog or bitch passes, or, (and here is the main issue) they understand what they are doing with the dog or bitch that may not have perfect hips or elbows. Remember this is but one part of an animal. I remember one person who when they started to evaluate hips, put all her bitches down. She is no longer breeding as that destroyed her lines. In Germany they give the A stamp at one year. We have decided that OFA cannot be properly decided until two years have gone by. We have improved out hip problems to a great degree. The GSDCA was one of the first clubs to support the OFA and we made great progress, and since then, the improvement has slowed, as had been expected. A good breeder will know what they are doing with their breeding program and try to breed better dogs. Using one element to breed for is a good way to ruin your chances of every having great dogs. Or not. Remember, I have always said not to take my advice. I urge you to follow that advice. Evan _Asgard German Shepherds_ (http://www.asgardgsd.com/) http://www.asgardgsd.com/ Where Type Movement and Temperament come together ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================