great post Peggy....thank you...i went to many shows for years before breeding....i titled dogs in schutzhund, obedience and conformation and decided i wanted conformation but i still didnt know all that was involved and no standard could help me...it was trial and error....if i didnt understand the judges picks, i asked....i also talked to handlers that had the winning dogs and were willing to share their knowledge and expertise...you have to have in your mind a picture of what you are striving to breed for and work at it....also one has to have "the eye".....i know a breeder who can evaluate a dog and pick all the winners at a dog show but cant breed it(Not an easy task).....NO stud dog can meet all your expectations as i would always critique my bitch first and strive to improve on her faults....too many buy into winning dogs and get the credit of a champion and do not have the background of what it took to breed that super puppy....are we wealthy to the point, we can go out and buy into that super dog ???? NO !!!!! so if we were to succeed, we had to breed it and i am very proud of what we are producing and winning with today at the specialties....the only value in the standard FOR ME is for these pet people who listen to these vets who say because our dogs are angled, they are crippled and people listen to them....using a standard that is not equal to what we are producing today is taking us back instead of going forward.... when i sell a dog, i recommend books that i feel give the right information and is easy to understand for "John Q Public"....would love to go on about this, but my furkids are calling......natalie CLOVERLEIFE HILL KENNELS http://www.cloverleife.com/ CH CLOVERLEIFE'S DIMPLES - CH CARMIL'S AMADEUS V WINDYWOOD CH CLOVERLEIFE'S CAPPUCCINO ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================