Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind programmers
- From: Jackie McBride <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 08:59:06 -0700
I've found some libraries and projects are particularly helpfull in this area.
Wanna mention those, Ty?
On 4/9/11, Jackie McBride <abletec@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Jared, these links are great! Thanks! Where'd u find out about this,
> anyway? Am I still livin in a cave or what?
>
> On 4/9/11, Jackie McBride <abletec@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> On Friday, Apr. 8, 2011, the wayward geek queried:
>> So, I guess I have to agree that at least in my own experience, being
>> a programmer with a disability isn't easy, and you either have to
>> confine yourself to what works well today, or be willing to roll your
>> own. I know that in RSI land, most programmers are not willing to go
>> that far. Is it similar in vision impairment land? People just
>> aren't willing to do what is required to make their own environment
>> work?
>>
>> Well I'm not sayin that isn't some of it. I would also say that, at
>> least for me, much of the difficulty I've had is trying to find
>> information, e.g., as on OSM's, as I pointed out earlier, or even on,
>> for example, programming of screenreaders such as orca or NVDA.
>> Because this is such a specialized niche, there just doesn't seem to
>> be a lot of info out there floating about, & this, Bill, is where I
>> could see your idea as being truly valuable, e.g., helping to compile
>> some of this really specialized knowledge or at least point folks in
>> the direction of where to acquire it, what tools they'll need b4
>> acquiring it, etc. I suppose the thing I ought to do is sign up on the
>> developer list of 1 of these, but u know, 1 doesn't feel particularly
>> comfortable just hanging around & not contributing, yet probably isn't
>> in the position to contribute much. I don't have a computer science
>> degree (mine's medical), which likely is a severe disadvantage. Still,
>> I'd like to learn these things. Maybe I'm just lazy or making excuses,
>> but it doesn't feel like that. It just feels like I don't know where
>> to start.
>>
>> U also said:
>> The slow TTS engines were driving me nuts, so I wrote libsonic so I could
>> listen fast on Android or anywhere else.
>>
>> Like I said, I wouldn't even know where to begin.
>>
>> On 4/9/11, Jared Wright <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Jim and others, Sorry I haven't really followed this thread much after
>>> spewing all over it about 24 hours ago. Brother's wedding today, so
>>> I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off in relation to
>>> all that goes into that event! I did see Jim's request for the link to
>>> the MIT course, so I wanted to provide that.
>>> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-00-introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-fall-2008
>>> The course uses Python as its learning environment. There are many,
>>> many courses in MIT's video lecture hall, which can be found at
>>> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/
>>> You also may want to investigate Google Code University, located at
>>> http://code.google.com/edu/ A variety of people contribute courses and
>>> other learning materials to this resource, and I have had success on
>>> multiple occasions contacting instructors requesting additional
>>> context in the rare event that not all materials are immediately
>>> accessible or practical. Remember, we don't have to do everything
>>> ourselves! We have to do SOMETHING ourselves. People won't give us
>>> everything spoonfed and on a silver platter. But I've countless times
>>> solved accessibility challenges because of the willing assistance of
>>> someone else who has no connection to blindness but simply enjoys
>>> teaching and appreciates being involved with another's genuine desire
>>> to learn. These sorts of people are invaluable because it is much
>>> easier to solve a blindness related obstacle when you have someone
>>> explaining to you what the sighted user is looking for when they are
>>> using the interface, application, etc.. And, you know, I've made a few
>>> great friends as a bonus perc. Happy learning!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/8/11, Homme, James <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Hi Jared,
>>>> I'm very glad to find out about the free course you mention. It makes
>>>> me
>>>> happy to know that it's there. Where is it on their site? What other
>>>> links
>>>> are you hiding from us. <grin>
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree that the concepts of programming do not depend on
>>>> vision.
>>>> Or, that they do not need to depend on vision. I like to hang out in
>>>> this
>>>> environment for the touchy feely aspect. No pun intended. I like the
>>>> encouragement from those list members who have been there and done
>>>> that.
>>>> I
>>>> like to encourage others who are on their way to learning whatever I
>>>> know
>>>> that can help them. Sometimes, we have a little difficulty in this
>>>> environment, because it's so easy to miscommunicate via e-mail, but In
>>>> my
>>>> opinion, we are on this list to help each other along, more than we are
>>>> here
>>>> to pat ourselves on the back for what we know.
>>>>
>>>> I also feel, since I'm someone who helps people who are blind get jobs,
>>>> that
>>>> our clients feel better if they find out that someone we are helping
>>>> get
>>>> a
>>>> job with has their credentials from an institution that our clients
>>>> know
>>>> about. That's why I proposed that if we would do this through Hadley,
>>>> that
>>>> we make sure that a University gives the person real credits for what
>>>> they
>>>> do. The question of just how good this blind school place would come
>>>> into
>>>> the conversation. I'd rather avoid that. We could then tell them that
>>>> they
>>>> have their credits through such and such a university while they are
>>>> totally
>>>> trained on assistive technology. That would translate to the client
>>>> like
>>>> this. "The candidate is totally trained on programming, and the
>>>> assistive
>>>> technology use. No problem."
>>>>
>>>> Note that I'm leaving politics over putting software onto computers,
>>>> remote
>>>> desktop and virtual machines, and so on out of the equation for
>>>> simplicity.
>>>>
>>>> Come to think of it, I'd rather Hadley not teach programming, but
>>>> perhaps
>>>> teach something like how to use Linux while blind, or how to use Visual
>>>> Studio while blind, or How to use Eclipse while blind. That would be a
>>>> better use of Hadley's focus, but while the person would be learning
>>>> how
>>>> to
>>>> use said environment, they could go and get courses through Hadley at
>>>> such
>>>> and such a university, and be allowed to submit pseudo code as a
>>>> replacement
>>>> for flowcharts, or spreadsheets rather than whatever those database
>>>> specification diagrams are called. You get the idea.
>>>>
>>>> I would prefer that the perspective client focus on the persons
>>>> capabilities, so if we tell them that the candidate went to such and
>>>> such
>>>> a
>>>> university and got their credits, rather than to ABC special school for
>>>> blind programmers, that would help avoid the whole aspect that they
>>>> immediately start to think about how the person is incapable of doing
>>>> the
>>>> job. Unfortunately, that's just human nature.
>>>>
>>>> So, to conclude this drivel, I'm very glad that you shared the
>>>> information
>>>> about the course. Please feel free to spill your guts about whatever
>>>> you
>>>> know that will help us be better programmers in the spirit of love,
>>>> peace,
>>>> and joy, and pulling us up the ladder of knowledge, rather than
>>>> stepping
>>>> on
>>>> our hands for attempting to reach to the next rung, and I will steal
>>>> your
>>>> knowledge and put it up on either the fruit basket site or
>>>> Nonvisualdevelopment, unless you'd like to put it up there, then tell
>>>> us
>>>> that there's a link to it. <grin>
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> p.s. I'm not accusing you of anything bad.
>>>>
>>>> p.p.s. I'm trying to share this in the spirit of love, joy, peace, and
>>>> so
>>>> on. <grin>
>>>>
>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>> Usability Services,
>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared
>>>> Wright
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 9:56 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>> programmers
>>>>
>>>> It certainly gives me more context to work with, and let me say that I
>>>> appreciate the constructive, conversational reply instead of the
>>>> hostility I think I'd have gotten a lot of places in response to that
>>>> message. Make no mistake, I think the notion of a blind community
>>>> sticking together and helping each other solve the challenges we face
>>>> as
>>>> nonsighted computer scientists is a fruitful endeavor. What I am most
>>>> hesitant about is the notion of creating an isolated environment where
>>>> blind people may be inclined to think they need to learn programming as
>>>> well as investing the time and money into attempting to acquire
>>>> acreditation to validate such an environment. Would it be useful for
>>>> the
>>>> best and brightest among us to conduct webinars or informal lessons
>>>> specifically targeted at overcoming access hurdles in the world of
>>>> programming? Absolutely! Courses on scripting the various screen
>>>> readers, for instance, are useful, because that is knowledge that only
>>>> the blind community has a reason to have. But I think when you get into
>>>> validating a complete learning environment just for blind programmers,
>>>> you disassociate those blind students from the very valuable resources
>>>> that are useful to us as well as everyone else.
>>>>
>>>> I guess where we might not completely agree is that I think there
>>>> is
>>>> very little for which blind people need their own specialized version,
>>>> especially in the digitized world of computer programming. I don't feel
>>>> a proficient blind programmer's time is best used teaching a course on
>>>> object oriented programming concepts specifically for blind people. OOP
>>>> itself doesn't care if you can see or not. MIT already has such a
>>>> course
>>>> online available for all aspiring programmers, blind and sighted, and
>>>> for free nonetheless! Sourcecode and other course materials are
>>>> readily
>>>> downloadable and quite accessible.
>>>>
>>>> You don't see me ask many general programming questions on this
>>>> list, but I can assure you I have them. A lot of them. But I field
>>>> those
>>>> on forums that are for programmers in general, communities made up of
>>>> thousdands of programmers instead of the dozens that are on this list.
>>>> This grants me both a greater variety of expertise to tap into and
>>>> usually far faster responses to my questions. . The only questions I
>>>> field on this list are related to tools or techniques that directly
>>>> relate to constructing a blind-friendly working environment for my
>>>> projects. Why propogate the idea that a blind coder has to learn from
>>>> another blind coder? It just isn't the case, in my opinion. The only
>>>> things a blind coder has to learn from another blind coder, in my view,
>>>> relate to how to set up a development environment that accommodates
>>>> our assistive technology. And, as I mentioned yesterday, I feel this is
>>>> in the grand scheme of things a small part of programming education.
>>>> On 4/8/2011 9:18 AM, Homme, James wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jared,
>>>>> I have a development background, but my development skills are old. I
>>>>> started out as a Cobol programmer when a degree wasn't required. I
>>>>> went
>>>>> to
>>>>> a specialized school for people with disabilities here in Pittsburgh
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn Cobol. At work, I moved on to doing Lotus Formula language,
>>>>> which
>>>>> is
>>>>> something like a batch language, and LotusScript, which is a lot like
>>>>> QuickBasic or VBScript. I also know bits of SQL, PHP, Perl,
>>>>> JavaScript,
>>>>> and HTML, although I know HTML 4.1 and XHTML very well. I'm learning
>>>>> Java
>>>>> because we are retiring Lotus Notes soon, here. I have attempted to
>>>>> learn
>>>>> Python several times. So you are right that I have many holes in my
>>>>> Computer Science knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding having a separatist environment, I'm unsure how I feel about
>>>>> that. When I think about it, this list is sort of a separatist
>>>>> environment
>>>>> that much of the time discusses how to do things with assistive
>>>>> technology.
>>>>>
>>>>> The thing I want in a school, I guess, is to be able to have
>>>>> structure,
>>>>> which I realize I can get in a non-separatist environment, but still
>>>>> have
>>>>> people who are like me, in that they are also using assistive
>>>>> technology
>>>>> to do what they do. So maybe I almost already have what I want. Maybe
>>>>> I
>>>>> still buy into the assumption that blind people need special stuff. I
>>>>> went
>>>>> to school in an institutional environment, before we had what used to
>>>>> be
>>>>> called mainstreaming.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does that answer help at all?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>>> Usability Services,
>>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>>>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
>>>>> accessibility
>>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared
>>>>> Wright
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 8:50 AM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>>>>> blind
>>>>> programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> Some reasoning to support this would be helpful. Absolutely no
>>>>> disrespect meant, but you do not seem to be in the workplace in a
>>>>> typical software development capacity given your fairly rudimentary
>>>>> questions on the list about modern programming concepts. That really
>>>>> is
>>>>> not meant as a criticism, please do not take it as such. Also please
>>>>> correct me if my observations have lead me to the wrong conclusion.
>>>>> But
>>>>> usability/accessibility analysis and mainstream software engineering
>>>>> are
>>>>> like steak and potatoes. Both play an important role in a great meal
>>>>> but
>>>>> are very different in their preparation. so some additional context
>>>>> for
>>>>> why you feel a separatist educational environment for programming
>>>>> would
>>>>> be beneficial would help me understand why you take the position you
>>>>> do.
>>>>> On 4/8/2011 7:26 AM, Homme, James wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> As someone already in the work place, I think it would be a good
>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>>>> Usability Services,
>>>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>>>>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared
>>>>>> Wright
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:29 PM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> programmers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also am inclined to agree with this. I'm just finished with school
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> haven't gotten to see first hand just how much of an impact it will
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> in the workforce, I admit, but I know I learned a lot about not just
>>>>>> programming but about working smoothly on a development team
>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>> made up of sighted developers by going to a "normal" university for
>>>>>> CompSci. My fear would be that in a special environment for blind
>>>>>> programming instruction all the tools used for class would be the
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> accessible ones available. Then a student would get into the work
>>>>>> force
>>>>>> with an employer who doesn't use those ideal accessible tools and the
>>>>>> student would be ill-equipped to problem solve this challenge. I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> having a vibrant, active community of blind coders working on things
>>>>>> like nonvisualdevelopment.org and contributing to forums like this
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> is a great way to help address the unique challenges of being a blind
>>>>>> coder, but in the grand scheme of things I feel I spend about 10% of
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> time devoted to programming and related pursuits finding
>>>>>> blind-friendly
>>>>>> ways of using tools or environments. The other 90% is the same
>>>>>> process
>>>>>> of learning programming that my sighted peers take on. I also do
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> there would be issues with many employers disregarding or harboring
>>>>>> skepticism of applicants who listed a specialized school for blind
>>>>>> people on a resumé. Still, a good idea to kick around and get a
>>>>>> variety
>>>>>> of prospectives on.
>>>>>> On 4/7/2011 3:23 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>>>>> I agree with this as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>> Sina
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken
>>>>>>> Perry
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:08 PM
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> programmers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have to say this even though I think there is a place for what
>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>> thinking of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hate sepertive schools. One of the things that made me a good
>>>>>>> programmer
>>>>>>> was competing against the people I would be competing against in the
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> world In the academic world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The salt Lake community college had a class run by novel that taught
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> people to code for Novel OS but I found the students that came out
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> knew a single thing and not very well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now with that said if the standards are high enough a school like
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> be a good benefit but you have to be careful not to dumb down both
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> speed
>>>>>>> of learning or quality thereof. Of course that is true for all
>>>>>>> schools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One last thing though that the regular schools taught me. That is
>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> life as a blind coder is finding ways to cope with problems that you
>>>>>>> run
>>>>>>> into. If you have things handed to you, you might not be as
>>>>>>> affective
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> you get out in the work world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:03 PM
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>>>>> programmers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is still in the dumb-idea phase, and I don't have any funding
>>>>>>> lined up to get this started. That said...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have not been able to find any on-line school for teaching blind
>>>>>>> people to become professional programmers. I feel the world needs
>>>>>>> such an organization. I am not able to start such a school myself,
>>>>>>> but I would be interested in assisting social entrepreneurs in
>>>>>>> starting such a venture. I it would best be implemented as a
>>>>>>> for-profit social entrepreneurial venture. You can read about
>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>> entrepreneurs here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.ashoka.org/social_entrepreneur
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entrepreneurship
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm thinking it could be a Low Profit Corporation (LPC) founded to
>>>>>>> run
>>>>>>> the school for a profit. Everyone hired in teaching or management
>>>>>>> would be vision impaired or blind. Students would attend classes
>>>>>>> on-line, and could be anywhere in the world. Classes would not be
>>>>>>> free (maybe $1,000 per 1-semester course?). Students who are too
>>>>>>> poor
>>>>>>> to pay would be expected to do well in their courses and make up
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> fees by assisting teaching of those courses in later semesters.
>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> might also be required to work for an associated consulting company
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> earn tuition. Students would be encouraged to help mentor each
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> in any case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Associated with the school could be a software consulting services
>>>>>>> company. The company would only hire vision impaired programmers,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> students wanting to work for the company could take classes designed
>>>>>>> to train them in the skills they'll need. The company might
>>>>>>> encourage
>>>>>>> it's employees to spend one day a week on FOSS projects of their
>>>>>>> interest, which hopefully would include improving accessibility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rough numbers to back up the idea: There are around 15 million
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> with "severe" vision impairments in the US. Roughly half of those
>>>>>>> people are too old. Half of the rest may have other impairments
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> would prevent them from becoming programmers. In the general
>>>>>>> population, there are 1 programmer out of every 500 people in the
>>>>>>> US.
>>>>>>> I would expect a ratio at least that high among the blind, or about
>>>>>>> 7,500 professional programmers in the US alone. If we took 20 years
>>>>>>> to train that many, it'd be 375 new students per year, and assuming
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> two year program, we'd have 750 students. If only half paid the
>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>> fees, but took three classes at a time (a full load), that'd be
>>>>>>> $3,000*750*2 = $4.5 million per year. My kids go to a school which
>>>>>>> happens to have about 750 students and a budget of just over $4
>>>>>>> million per year, and that includes paying for a school. So, that
>>>>>>> math seems to work out, but we're not talking about anyone making a
>>>>>>> billion dollars in this effort. This is not a VC-fundable idea, but
>>>>>>> it might attract funding from groups that invest in socially
>>>>>>> beneficial startups.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know a couple of good candidates to start this school, and one
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> be interested in actually doing it. Are there any good blind or
>>>>>>> vision impaired people you guys could recommend for me to talk to?
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> think the key would be finding the right couple of guys.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
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>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Blame the computer--why not? It can't defend itself & occasionally
>> might even be the culprit
>> Jackie McBride
>> Jaws Scripting training materials:
>> www.screenreaderscripting.com
>> homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>>
>
>
> --
> Blame the computer--why not? It can't defend itself & occasionally
> might even be the culprit
> Jackie McBride
> Jaws Scripting training materials:
> www.screenreaderscripting.com
> homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>
--
Blame the computer--why not? It can't defend itself & occasionally
might even be the culprit
Jackie McBride
Jaws Scripting training materials:
www.screenreaderscripting.com
homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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