I've found some libraries and projects are particularly helpfull in this area. Wanna mention those, Ty? On 4/9/11, Jackie McBride <abletec@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Jared, these links are great! Thanks! Where'd u find out about this, > anyway? Am I still livin in a cave or what? > > On 4/9/11, Jackie McBride <abletec@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> On Friday, Apr. 8, 2011, the wayward geek queried: >> So, I guess I have to agree that at least in my own experience, being >> a programmer with a disability isn't easy, and you either have to >> confine yourself to what works well today, or be willing to roll your >> own. I know that in RSI land, most programmers are not willing to go >> that far. Is it similar in vision impairment land? People just >> aren't willing to do what is required to make their own environment >> work? >> >> Well I'm not sayin that isn't some of it. I would also say that, at >> least for me, much of the difficulty I've had is trying to find >> information, e.g., as on OSM's, as I pointed out earlier, or even on, >> for example, programming of screenreaders such as orca or NVDA. >> Because this is such a specialized niche, there just doesn't seem to >> be a lot of info out there floating about, & this, Bill, is where I >> could see your idea as being truly valuable, e.g., helping to compile >> some of this really specialized knowledge or at least point folks in >> the direction of where to acquire it, what tools they'll need b4 >> acquiring it, etc. I suppose the thing I ought to do is sign up on the >> developer list of 1 of these, but u know, 1 doesn't feel particularly >> comfortable just hanging around & not contributing, yet probably isn't >> in the position to contribute much. I don't have a computer science >> degree (mine's medical), which likely is a severe disadvantage. Still, >> I'd like to learn these things. Maybe I'm just lazy or making excuses, >> but it doesn't feel like that. It just feels like I don't know where >> to start. >> >> U also said: >> The slow TTS engines were driving me nuts, so I wrote libsonic so I could >> listen fast on Android or anywhere else. >> >> Like I said, I wouldn't even know where to begin. >> >> On 4/9/11, Jared Wright <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> Jim and others, Sorry I haven't really followed this thread much after >>> spewing all over it about 24 hours ago. Brother's wedding today, so >>> I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off in relation to >>> all that goes into that event! I did see Jim's request for the link to >>> the MIT course, so I wanted to provide that. >>> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-00-introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-fall-2008 >>> The course uses Python as its learning environment. There are many, >>> many courses in MIT's video lecture hall, which can be found at >>> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/ >>> You also may want to investigate Google Code University, located at >>> http://code.google.com/edu/ A variety of people contribute courses and >>> other learning materials to this resource, and I have had success on >>> multiple occasions contacting instructors requesting additional >>> context in the rare event that not all materials are immediately >>> accessible or practical. Remember, we don't have to do everything >>> ourselves! We have to do SOMETHING ourselves. People won't give us >>> everything spoonfed and on a silver platter. But I've countless times >>> solved accessibility challenges because of the willing assistance of >>> someone else who has no connection to blindness but simply enjoys >>> teaching and appreciates being involved with another's genuine desire >>> to learn. These sorts of people are invaluable because it is much >>> easier to solve a blindness related obstacle when you have someone >>> explaining to you what the sighted user is looking for when they are >>> using the interface, application, etc.. And, you know, I've made a few >>> great friends as a bonus perc. Happy learning! >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4/8/11, Homme, James <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> Hi Jared, >>>> I'm very glad to find out about the free course you mention. It makes >>>> me >>>> happy to know that it's there. Where is it on their site? What other >>>> links >>>> are you hiding from us. <grin> >>>> >>>> I totally agree that the concepts of programming do not depend on >>>> vision. >>>> Or, that they do not need to depend on vision. I like to hang out in >>>> this >>>> environment for the touchy feely aspect. No pun intended. I like the >>>> encouragement from those list members who have been there and done >>>> that. >>>> I >>>> like to encourage others who are on their way to learning whatever I >>>> know >>>> that can help them. Sometimes, we have a little difficulty in this >>>> environment, because it's so easy to miscommunicate via e-mail, but In >>>> my >>>> opinion, we are on this list to help each other along, more than we are >>>> here >>>> to pat ourselves on the back for what we know. >>>> >>>> I also feel, since I'm someone who helps people who are blind get jobs, >>>> that >>>> our clients feel better if they find out that someone we are helping >>>> get >>>> a >>>> job with has their credentials from an institution that our clients >>>> know >>>> about. That's why I proposed that if we would do this through Hadley, >>>> that >>>> we make sure that a University gives the person real credits for what >>>> they >>>> do. The question of just how good this blind school place would come >>>> into >>>> the conversation. I'd rather avoid that. We could then tell them that >>>> they >>>> have their credits through such and such a university while they are >>>> totally >>>> trained on assistive technology. That would translate to the client >>>> like >>>> this. "The candidate is totally trained on programming, and the >>>> assistive >>>> technology use. No problem." >>>> >>>> Note that I'm leaving politics over putting software onto computers, >>>> remote >>>> desktop and virtual machines, and so on out of the equation for >>>> simplicity. >>>> >>>> Come to think of it, I'd rather Hadley not teach programming, but >>>> perhaps >>>> teach something like how to use Linux while blind, or how to use Visual >>>> Studio while blind, or How to use Eclipse while blind. That would be a >>>> better use of Hadley's focus, but while the person would be learning >>>> how >>>> to >>>> use said environment, they could go and get courses through Hadley at >>>> such >>>> and such a university, and be allowed to submit pseudo code as a >>>> replacement >>>> for flowcharts, or spreadsheets rather than whatever those database >>>> specification diagrams are called. You get the idea. >>>> >>>> I would prefer that the perspective client focus on the persons >>>> capabilities, so if we tell them that the candidate went to such and >>>> such >>>> a >>>> university and got their credits, rather than to ABC special school for >>>> blind programmers, that would help avoid the whole aspect that they >>>> immediately start to think about how the person is incapable of doing >>>> the >>>> job. Unfortunately, that's just human nature. >>>> >>>> So, to conclude this drivel, I'm very glad that you shared the >>>> information >>>> about the course. Please feel free to spill your guts about whatever >>>> you >>>> know that will help us be better programmers in the spirit of love, >>>> peace, >>>> and joy, and pulling us up the ladder of knowledge, rather than >>>> stepping >>>> on >>>> our hands for attempting to reach to the next rung, and I will steal >>>> your >>>> knowledge and put it up on either the fruit basket site or >>>> Nonvisualdevelopment, unless you'd like to put it up there, then tell >>>> us >>>> that there's a link to it. <grin> >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> p.s. I'm not accusing you of anything bad. >>>> >>>> p.p.s. I'm trying to share this in the spirit of love, joy, peace, and >>>> so >>>> on. <grin> >>>> >>>> Jim Homme, >>>> Usability Services, >>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme >>>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility >>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared >>>> Wright >>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 9:56 AM >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind >>>> programmers >>>> >>>> It certainly gives me more context to work with, and let me say that I >>>> appreciate the constructive, conversational reply instead of the >>>> hostility I think I'd have gotten a lot of places in response to that >>>> message. Make no mistake, I think the notion of a blind community >>>> sticking together and helping each other solve the challenges we face >>>> as >>>> nonsighted computer scientists is a fruitful endeavor. What I am most >>>> hesitant about is the notion of creating an isolated environment where >>>> blind people may be inclined to think they need to learn programming as >>>> well as investing the time and money into attempting to acquire >>>> acreditation to validate such an environment. Would it be useful for >>>> the >>>> best and brightest among us to conduct webinars or informal lessons >>>> specifically targeted at overcoming access hurdles in the world of >>>> programming? Absolutely! Courses on scripting the various screen >>>> readers, for instance, are useful, because that is knowledge that only >>>> the blind community has a reason to have. But I think when you get into >>>> validating a complete learning environment just for blind programmers, >>>> you disassociate those blind students from the very valuable resources >>>> that are useful to us as well as everyone else. >>>> >>>> I guess where we might not completely agree is that I think there >>>> is >>>> very little for which blind people need their own specialized version, >>>> especially in the digitized world of computer programming. I don't feel >>>> a proficient blind programmer's time is best used teaching a course on >>>> object oriented programming concepts specifically for blind people. OOP >>>> itself doesn't care if you can see or not. MIT already has such a >>>> course >>>> online available for all aspiring programmers, blind and sighted, and >>>> for free nonetheless! Sourcecode and other course materials are >>>> readily >>>> downloadable and quite accessible. >>>> >>>> You don't see me ask many general programming questions on this >>>> list, but I can assure you I have them. A lot of them. But I field >>>> those >>>> on forums that are for programmers in general, communities made up of >>>> thousdands of programmers instead of the dozens that are on this list. >>>> This grants me both a greater variety of expertise to tap into and >>>> usually far faster responses to my questions. . The only questions I >>>> field on this list are related to tools or techniques that directly >>>> relate to constructing a blind-friendly working environment for my >>>> projects. Why propogate the idea that a blind coder has to learn from >>>> another blind coder? It just isn't the case, in my opinion. The only >>>> things a blind coder has to learn from another blind coder, in my view, >>>> relate to how to set up a development environment that accommodates >>>> our assistive technology. And, as I mentioned yesterday, I feel this is >>>> in the grand scheme of things a small part of programming education. >>>> On 4/8/2011 9:18 AM, Homme, James wrote: >>>>> Hi Jared, >>>>> I have a development background, but my development skills are old. I >>>>> started out as a Cobol programmer when a degree wasn't required. I >>>>> went >>>>> to >>>>> a specialized school for people with disabilities here in Pittsburgh >>>>> to >>>>> learn Cobol. At work, I moved on to doing Lotus Formula language, >>>>> which >>>>> is >>>>> something like a batch language, and LotusScript, which is a lot like >>>>> QuickBasic or VBScript. I also know bits of SQL, PHP, Perl, >>>>> JavaScript, >>>>> and HTML, although I know HTML 4.1 and XHTML very well. I'm learning >>>>> Java >>>>> because we are retiring Lotus Notes soon, here. I have attempted to >>>>> learn >>>>> Python several times. So you are right that I have many holes in my >>>>> Computer Science knowledge. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding having a separatist environment, I'm unsure how I feel about >>>>> that. When I think about it, this list is sort of a separatist >>>>> environment >>>>> that much of the time discusses how to do things with assistive >>>>> technology. >>>>> >>>>> The thing I want in a school, I guess, is to be able to have >>>>> structure, >>>>> which I realize I can get in a non-separatist environment, but still >>>>> have >>>>> people who are like me, in that they are also using assistive >>>>> technology >>>>> to do what they do. So maybe I almost already have what I want. Maybe >>>>> I >>>>> still buy into the assumption that blind people need special stuff. I >>>>> went >>>>> to school in an institutional environment, before we had what used to >>>>> be >>>>> called mainstreaming. >>>>> >>>>> Does that answer help at all? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> Jim Homme, >>>>> Usability Services, >>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme >>>>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss >>>>> accessibility >>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared >>>>> Wright >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 8:50 AM >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for >>>>> blind >>>>> programmers >>>>> >>>>> Some reasoning to support this would be helpful. Absolutely no >>>>> disrespect meant, but you do not seem to be in the workplace in a >>>>> typical software development capacity given your fairly rudimentary >>>>> questions on the list about modern programming concepts. That really >>>>> is >>>>> not meant as a criticism, please do not take it as such. Also please >>>>> correct me if my observations have lead me to the wrong conclusion. >>>>> But >>>>> usability/accessibility analysis and mainstream software engineering >>>>> are >>>>> like steak and potatoes. Both play an important role in a great meal >>>>> but >>>>> are very different in their preparation. so some additional context >>>>> for >>>>> why you feel a separatist educational environment for programming >>>>> would >>>>> be beneficial would help me understand why you take the position you >>>>> do. >>>>> On 4/8/2011 7:26 AM, Homme, James wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> As someone already in the work place, I think it would be a good >>>>>> thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim Homme, >>>>>> Usability Services, >>>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme >>>>>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss >>>>>> accessibility >>>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared >>>>>> Wright >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:29 PM >>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for >>>>>> blind >>>>>> programmers >>>>>> >>>>>> I also am inclined to agree with this. I'm just finished with school >>>>>> and >>>>>> haven't gotten to see first hand just how much of an impact it will >>>>>> have >>>>>> in the workforce, I admit, but I know I learned a lot about not just >>>>>> programming but about working smoothly on a development team >>>>>> otherwise >>>>>> made up of sighted developers by going to a "normal" university for >>>>>> CompSci. My fear would be that in a special environment for blind >>>>>> programming instruction all the tools used for class would be the >>>>>> most >>>>>> accessible ones available. Then a student would get into the work >>>>>> force >>>>>> with an employer who doesn't use those ideal accessible tools and the >>>>>> student would be ill-equipped to problem solve this challenge. I >>>>>> think >>>>>> having a vibrant, active community of blind coders working on things >>>>>> like nonvisualdevelopment.org and contributing to forums like this >>>>>> one >>>>>> is a great way to help address the unique challenges of being a blind >>>>>> coder, but in the grand scheme of things I feel I spend about 10% of >>>>>> my >>>>>> time devoted to programming and related pursuits finding >>>>>> blind-friendly >>>>>> ways of using tools or environments. The other 90% is the same >>>>>> process >>>>>> of learning programming that my sighted peers take on. I also do >>>>>> think >>>>>> there would be issues with many employers disregarding or harboring >>>>>> skepticism of applicants who listed a specialized school for blind >>>>>> people on a resumé. Still, a good idea to kick around and get a >>>>>> variety >>>>>> of prospectives on. >>>>>> On 4/7/2011 3:23 PM, Sina Bahram wrote: >>>>>>> I agree with this as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>> Sina >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken >>>>>>> Perry >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:08 PM >>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> programmers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have to say this even though I think there is a place for what >>>>>>> you're >>>>>>> thinking of. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hate sepertive schools. One of the things that made me a good >>>>>>> programmer >>>>>>> was competing against the people I would be competing against in the >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> world In the academic world. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The salt Lake community college had a class run by novel that taught >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people to code for Novel OS but I found the students that came out >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> knew a single thing and not very well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now with that said if the standards are high enough a school like >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> be a good benefit but you have to be careful not to dumb down both >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> speed >>>>>>> of learning or quality thereof. Of course that is true for all >>>>>>> schools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One last thing though that the regular schools taught me. That is >>>>>>> part >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> life as a blind coder is finding ways to cope with problems that you >>>>>>> run >>>>>>> into. If you have things handed to you, you might not be as >>>>>>> affective >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> you get out in the work world. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ken >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:03 PM >>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> Subject: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind >>>>>>> programmers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is still in the dumb-idea phase, and I don't have any funding >>>>>>> lined up to get this started. That said... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have not been able to find any on-line school for teaching blind >>>>>>> people to become professional programmers. I feel the world needs >>>>>>> such an organization. I am not able to start such a school myself, >>>>>>> but I would be interested in assisting social entrepreneurs in >>>>>>> starting such a venture. I it would best be implemented as a >>>>>>> for-profit social entrepreneurial venture. You can read about >>>>>>> social >>>>>>> entrepreneurs here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.ashoka.org/social_entrepreneur >>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entrepreneurship >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm thinking it could be a Low Profit Corporation (LPC) founded to >>>>>>> run >>>>>>> the school for a profit. Everyone hired in teaching or management >>>>>>> would be vision impaired or blind. Students would attend classes >>>>>>> on-line, and could be anywhere in the world. Classes would not be >>>>>>> free (maybe $1,000 per 1-semester course?). Students who are too >>>>>>> poor >>>>>>> to pay would be expected to do well in their courses and make up >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> fees by assisting teaching of those courses in later semesters. >>>>>>> They >>>>>>> might also be required to work for an associated consulting company >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> earn tuition. Students would be encouraged to help mentor each >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> in any case. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Associated with the school could be a software consulting services >>>>>>> company. The company would only hire vision impaired programmers, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> students wanting to work for the company could take classes designed >>>>>>> to train them in the skills they'll need. The company might >>>>>>> encourage >>>>>>> it's employees to spend one day a week on FOSS projects of their >>>>>>> interest, which hopefully would include improving accessibility. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rough numbers to back up the idea: There are around 15 million >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> with "severe" vision impairments in the US. Roughly half of those >>>>>>> people are too old. Half of the rest may have other impairments >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> would prevent them from becoming programmers. In the general >>>>>>> population, there are 1 programmer out of every 500 people in the >>>>>>> US. >>>>>>> I would expect a ratio at least that high among the blind, or about >>>>>>> 7,500 professional programmers in the US alone. If we took 20 years >>>>>>> to train that many, it'd be 375 new students per year, and assuming >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> two year program, we'd have 750 students. If only half paid the >>>>>>> class >>>>>>> fees, but took three classes at a time (a full load), that'd be >>>>>>> $3,000*750*2 = $4.5 million per year. My kids go to a school which >>>>>>> happens to have about 750 students and a budget of just over $4 >>>>>>> million per year, and that includes paying for a school. So, that >>>>>>> math seems to work out, but we're not talking about anyone making a >>>>>>> billion dollars in this effort. This is not a VC-fundable idea, but >>>>>>> it might attract funding from groups that invest in socially >>>>>>> beneficial startups. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know a couple of good candidates to start this school, and one >>>>>>> might >>>>>>> be interested in actually doing it. Are there any good blind or >>>>>>> vision impaired people you guys could recommend for me to talk to? >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think the key would be finding the right couple of guys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are >>>>>> intended >>>>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are >>>>>> addressed. >>>>>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >>>>>> immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended >>>>>> recipient, >>>>>> you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail >>>>>> without >>>>>> the author's prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail >>>>>> message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its >>>>>> subsidiaries, or affiliates. >>>>>> __________ >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>> >>>>> __________ >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>> >>>> >>>> __________ >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>> >>>> __________ >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>> >>>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Blame the computer--why not? It can't defend itself & occasionally >> might even be the culprit >> Jackie McBride >> Jaws Scripting training materials: >> www.screenreaderscripting.com >> homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net >> > > > -- > Blame the computer--why not? It can't defend itself & occasionally > might even be the culprit > Jackie McBride > Jaws Scripting training materials: > www.screenreaderscripting.com > homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net > -- Blame the computer--why not? It can't defend itself & occasionally might even be the culprit Jackie McBride Jaws Scripting training materials: www.screenreaderscripting.com homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind