Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind programmers
- From: Jackie McBride <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 08:51:42 -0700
On Friday, Apr. 8, 2011, the wayward geek queried:
So, I guess I have to agree that at least in my own experience, being
a programmer with a disability isn't easy, and you either have to
confine yourself to what works well today, or be willing to roll your
own. I know that in RSI land, most programmers are not willing to go
that far. Is it similar in vision impairment land? People just
aren't willing to do what is required to make their own environment
work?
Well I'm not sayin that isn't some of it. I would also say that, at
least for me, much of the difficulty I've had is trying to find
information, e.g., as on OSM's, as I pointed out earlier, or even on,
for example, programming of screenreaders such as orca or NVDA.
Because this is such a specialized niche, there just doesn't seem to
be a lot of info out there floating about, & this, Bill, is where I
could see your idea as being truly valuable, e.g., helping to compile
some of this really specialized knowledge or at least point folks in
the direction of where to acquire it, what tools they'll need b4
acquiring it, etc. I suppose the thing I ought to do is sign up on the
developer list of 1 of these, but u know, 1 doesn't feel particularly
comfortable just hanging around & not contributing, yet probably isn't
in the position to contribute much. I don't have a computer science
degree (mine's medical), which likely is a severe disadvantage. Still,
I'd like to learn these things. Maybe I'm just lazy or making excuses,
but it doesn't feel like that. It just feels like I don't know where
to start.
U also said:
The slow TTS engines were driving me nuts, so I wrote libsonic so I could
listen fast on Android or anywhere else.
Like I said, I wouldn't even know where to begin.
On 4/9/11, Jared Wright <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Jim and others, Sorry I haven't really followed this thread much after
> spewing all over it about 24 hours ago. Brother's wedding today, so
> I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off in relation to
> all that goes into that event! I did see Jim's request for the link to
> the MIT course, so I wanted to provide that.
> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-00-introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-fall-2008
> The course uses Python as its learning environment. There are many,
> many courses in MIT's video lecture hall, which can be found at
> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/
> You also may want to investigate Google Code University, located at
> http://code.google.com/edu/ A variety of people contribute courses and
> other learning materials to this resource, and I have had success on
> multiple occasions contacting instructors requesting additional
> context in the rare event that not all materials are immediately
> accessible or practical. Remember, we don't have to do everything
> ourselves! We have to do SOMETHING ourselves. People won't give us
> everything spoonfed and on a silver platter. But I've countless times
> solved accessibility challenges because of the willing assistance of
> someone else who has no connection to blindness but simply enjoys
> teaching and appreciates being involved with another's genuine desire
> to learn. These sorts of people are invaluable because it is much
> easier to solve a blindness related obstacle when you have someone
> explaining to you what the sighted user is looking for when they are
> using the interface, application, etc.. And, you know, I've made a few
> great friends as a bonus perc. Happy learning!
>
>
>
> On 4/8/11, Homme, James <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Hi Jared,
>> I'm very glad to find out about the free course you mention. It makes me
>> happy to know that it's there. Where is it on their site? What other links
>> are you hiding from us. <grin>
>>
>> I totally agree that the concepts of programming do not depend on vision.
>> Or, that they do not need to depend on vision. I like to hang out in this
>> environment for the touchy feely aspect. No pun intended. I like the
>> encouragement from those list members who have been there and done that. I
>> like to encourage others who are on their way to learning whatever I know
>> that can help them. Sometimes, we have a little difficulty in this
>> environment, because it's so easy to miscommunicate via e-mail, but In my
>> opinion, we are on this list to help each other along, more than we are
>> here
>> to pat ourselves on the back for what we know.
>>
>> I also feel, since I'm someone who helps people who are blind get jobs,
>> that
>> our clients feel better if they find out that someone we are helping get a
>> job with has their credentials from an institution that our clients know
>> about. That's why I proposed that if we would do this through Hadley, that
>> we make sure that a University gives the person real credits for what they
>> do. The question of just how good this blind school place would come into
>> the conversation. I'd rather avoid that. We could then tell them that they
>> have their credits through such and such a university while they are
>> totally
>> trained on assistive technology. That would translate to the client like
>> this. "The candidate is totally trained on programming, and the assistive
>> technology use. No problem."
>>
>> Note that I'm leaving politics over putting software onto computers,
>> remote
>> desktop and virtual machines, and so on out of the equation for
>> simplicity.
>>
>> Come to think of it, I'd rather Hadley not teach programming, but perhaps
>> teach something like how to use Linux while blind, or how to use Visual
>> Studio while blind, or How to use Eclipse while blind. That would be a
>> better use of Hadley's focus, but while the person would be learning how
>> to
>> use said environment, they could go and get courses through Hadley at such
>> and such a university, and be allowed to submit pseudo code as a
>> replacement
>> for flowcharts, or spreadsheets rather than whatever those database
>> specification diagrams are called. You get the idea.
>>
>> I would prefer that the perspective client focus on the persons
>> capabilities, so if we tell them that the candidate went to such and such
>> a
>> university and got their credits, rather than to ABC special school for
>> blind programmers, that would help avoid the whole aspect that they
>> immediately start to think about how the person is incapable of doing the
>> job. Unfortunately, that's just human nature.
>>
>> So, to conclude this drivel, I'm very glad that you shared the
>> information
>> about the course. Please feel free to spill your guts about whatever you
>> know that will help us be better programmers in the spirit of love, peace,
>> and joy, and pulling us up the ladder of knowledge, rather than stepping
>> on
>> our hands for attempting to reach to the next rung, and I will steal your
>> knowledge and put it up on either the fruit basket site or
>> Nonvisualdevelopment, unless you'd like to put it up there, then tell us
>> that there's a link to it. <grin>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> p.s. I'm not accusing you of anything bad.
>>
>> p.p.s. I'm trying to share this in the spirit of love, joy, peace, and so
>> on. <grin>
>>
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 9:56 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>> programmers
>>
>> It certainly gives me more context to work with, and let me say that I
>> appreciate the constructive, conversational reply instead of the
>> hostility I think I'd have gotten a lot of places in response to that
>> message. Make no mistake, I think the notion of a blind community
>> sticking together and helping each other solve the challenges we face as
>> nonsighted computer scientists is a fruitful endeavor. What I am most
>> hesitant about is the notion of creating an isolated environment where
>> blind people may be inclined to think they need to learn programming as
>> well as investing the time and money into attempting to acquire
>> acreditation to validate such an environment. Would it be useful for the
>> best and brightest among us to conduct webinars or informal lessons
>> specifically targeted at overcoming access hurdles in the world of
>> programming? Absolutely! Courses on scripting the various screen
>> readers, for instance, are useful, because that is knowledge that only
>> the blind community has a reason to have. But I think when you get into
>> validating a complete learning environment just for blind programmers,
>> you disassociate those blind students from the very valuable resources
>> that are useful to us as well as everyone else.
>>
>> I guess where we might not completely agree is that I think there is
>> very little for which blind people need their own specialized version,
>> especially in the digitized world of computer programming. I don't feel
>> a proficient blind programmer's time is best used teaching a course on
>> object oriented programming concepts specifically for blind people. OOP
>> itself doesn't care if you can see or not. MIT already has such a course
>> online available for all aspiring programmers, blind and sighted, and
>> for free nonetheless! Sourcecode and other course materials are readily
>> downloadable and quite accessible.
>>
>> You don't see me ask many general programming questions on this
>> list, but I can assure you I have them. A lot of them. But I field those
>> on forums that are for programmers in general, communities made up of
>> thousdands of programmers instead of the dozens that are on this list.
>> This grants me both a greater variety of expertise to tap into and
>> usually far faster responses to my questions. . The only questions I
>> field on this list are related to tools or techniques that directly
>> relate to constructing a blind-friendly working environment for my
>> projects. Why propogate the idea that a blind coder has to learn from
>> another blind coder? It just isn't the case, in my opinion. The only
>> things a blind coder has to learn from another blind coder, in my view,
>> relate to how to set up a development environment that accommodates
>> our assistive technology. And, as I mentioned yesterday, I feel this is
>> in the grand scheme of things a small part of programming education.
>> On 4/8/2011 9:18 AM, Homme, James wrote:
>>> Hi Jared,
>>> I have a development background, but my development skills are old. I
>>> started out as a Cobol programmer when a degree wasn't required. I went
>>> to
>>> a specialized school for people with disabilities here in Pittsburgh to
>>> learn Cobol. At work, I moved on to doing Lotus Formula language, which
>>> is
>>> something like a batch language, and LotusScript, which is a lot like
>>> QuickBasic or VBScript. I also know bits of SQL, PHP, Perl, JavaScript,
>>> and HTML, although I know HTML 4.1 and XHTML very well. I'm learning Java
>>> because we are retiring Lotus Notes soon, here. I have attempted to learn
>>> Python several times. So you are right that I have many holes in my
>>> Computer Science knowledge.
>>>
>>> Regarding having a separatist environment, I'm unsure how I feel about
>>> that. When I think about it, this list is sort of a separatist
>>> environment
>>> that much of the time discusses how to do things with assistive
>>> technology.
>>>
>>> The thing I want in a school, I guess, is to be able to have structure,
>>> which I realize I can get in a non-separatist environment, but still have
>>> people who are like me, in that they are also using assistive technology
>>> to do what they do. So maybe I almost already have what I want. Maybe I
>>> still buy into the assumption that blind people need special stuff. I
>>> went
>>> to school in an institutional environment, before we had what used to be
>>> called mainstreaming.
>>>
>>> Does that answer help at all?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>> Jim Homme,
>>> Usability Services,
>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 8:50 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>> programmers
>>>
>>> Some reasoning to support this would be helpful. Absolutely no
>>> disrespect meant, but you do not seem to be in the workplace in a
>>> typical software development capacity given your fairly rudimentary
>>> questions on the list about modern programming concepts. That really is
>>> not meant as a criticism, please do not take it as such. Also please
>>> correct me if my observations have lead me to the wrong conclusion. But
>>> usability/accessibility analysis and mainstream software engineering are
>>> like steak and potatoes. Both play an important role in a great meal but
>>> are very different in their preparation. so some additional context for
>>> why you feel a separatist educational environment for programming would
>>> be beneficial would help me understand why you take the position you do.
>>> On 4/8/2011 7:26 AM, Homme, James wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> As someone already in the work place, I think it would be a good thing.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>> Usability Services,
>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>>> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:29 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>> programmers
>>>>
>>>> I also am inclined to agree with this. I'm just finished with school and
>>>> haven't gotten to see first hand just how much of an impact it will have
>>>> in the workforce, I admit, but I know I learned a lot about not just
>>>> programming but about working smoothly on a development team otherwise
>>>> made up of sighted developers by going to a "normal" university for
>>>> CompSci. My fear would be that in a special environment for blind
>>>> programming instruction all the tools used for class would be the most
>>>> accessible ones available. Then a student would get into the work force
>>>> with an employer who doesn't use those ideal accessible tools and the
>>>> student would be ill-equipped to problem solve this challenge. I think
>>>> having a vibrant, active community of blind coders working on things
>>>> like nonvisualdevelopment.org and contributing to forums like this one
>>>> is a great way to help address the unique challenges of being a blind
>>>> coder, but in the grand scheme of things I feel I spend about 10% of my
>>>> time devoted to programming and related pursuits finding blind-friendly
>>>> ways of using tools or environments. The other 90% is the same process
>>>> of learning programming that my sighted peers take on. I also do think
>>>> there would be issues with many employers disregarding or harboring
>>>> skepticism of applicants who listed a specialized school for blind
>>>> people on a resumé. Still, a good idea to kick around and get a variety
>>>> of prospectives on.
>>>> On 4/7/2011 3:23 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>>> I agree with this as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Sina
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:08 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>>> programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to say this even though I think there is a place for what you're
>>>>> thinking of.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hate sepertive schools. One of the things that made me a good
>>>>> programmer
>>>>> was competing against the people I would be competing against in the
>>>>> work
>>>>> world In the academic world.
>>>>>
>>>>> The salt Lake community college had a class run by novel that taught
>>>>> blind
>>>>> people to code for Novel OS but I found the students that came out of
>>>>> their
>>>>> knew a single thing and not very well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now with that said if the standards are high enough a school like this
>>>>> could
>>>>> be a good benefit but you have to be careful not to dumb down both the
>>>>> speed
>>>>> of learning or quality thereof. Of course that is true for all
>>>>> schools.
>>>>>
>>>>> One last thing though that the regular schools taught me. That is part
>>>>> of
>>>>> life as a blind coder is finding ways to cope with problems that you
>>>>> run
>>>>> into. If you have things handed to you, you might not be as affective
>>>>> when
>>>>> you get out in the work world.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:03 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>>> programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> This is still in the dumb-idea phase, and I don't have any funding
>>>>> lined up to get this started. That said...
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not been able to find any on-line school for teaching blind
>>>>> people to become professional programmers. I feel the world needs
>>>>> such an organization. I am not able to start such a school myself,
>>>>> but I would be interested in assisting social entrepreneurs in
>>>>> starting such a venture. I it would best be implemented as a
>>>>> for-profit social entrepreneurial venture. You can read about social
>>>>> entrepreneurs here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ashoka.org/social_entrepreneur
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entrepreneurship
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm thinking it could be a Low Profit Corporation (LPC) founded to run
>>>>> the school for a profit. Everyone hired in teaching or management
>>>>> would be vision impaired or blind. Students would attend classes
>>>>> on-line, and could be anywhere in the world. Classes would not be
>>>>> free (maybe $1,000 per 1-semester course?). Students who are too poor
>>>>> to pay would be expected to do well in their courses and make up their
>>>>> fees by assisting teaching of those courses in later semesters. They
>>>>> might also be required to work for an associated consulting company to
>>>>> earn tuition. Students would be encouraged to help mentor each other
>>>>> in any case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Associated with the school could be a software consulting services
>>>>> company. The company would only hire vision impaired programmers, and
>>>>> students wanting to work for the company could take classes designed
>>>>> to train them in the skills they'll need. The company might encourage
>>>>> it's employees to spend one day a week on FOSS projects of their
>>>>> interest, which hopefully would include improving accessibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rough numbers to back up the idea: There are around 15 million people
>>>>> with "severe" vision impairments in the US. Roughly half of those
>>>>> people are too old. Half of the rest may have other impairments that
>>>>> would prevent them from becoming programmers. In the general
>>>>> population, there are 1 programmer out of every 500 people in the US.
>>>>> I would expect a ratio at least that high among the blind, or about
>>>>> 7,500 professional programmers in the US alone. If we took 20 years
>>>>> to train that many, it'd be 375 new students per year, and assuming a
>>>>> two year program, we'd have 750 students. If only half paid the class
>>>>> fees, but took three classes at a time (a full load), that'd be
>>>>> $3,000*750*2 = $4.5 million per year. My kids go to a school which
>>>>> happens to have about 750 students and a budget of just over $4
>>>>> million per year, and that includes paying for a school. So, that
>>>>> math seems to work out, but we're not talking about anyone making a
>>>>> billion dollars in this effort. This is not a VC-fundable idea, but
>>>>> it might attract funding from groups that invest in socially
>>>>> beneficial startups.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know a couple of good candidates to start this school, and one might
>>>>> be interested in actually doing it. Are there any good blind or
>>>>> vision impaired people you guys could recommend for me to talk to? I
>>>>> think the key would be finding the right couple of guys.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> __________
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--
Blame the computer--why not? It can't defend itself & occasionally
might even be the culprit
Jackie McBride
Jaws Scripting training materials:
www.screenreaderscripting.com
homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
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