RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind programmers
- From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 09:18:15 -0400
Hi Jared,
I have a development background, but my development skills are old. I started
out as a Cobol programmer when a degree wasn't required. I went to a
specialized school for people with disabilities here in Pittsburgh to learn
Cobol. At work, I moved on to doing Lotus Formula language, which is something
like a batch language, and LotusScript, which is a lot like QuickBasic or
VBScript. I also know bits of SQL, PHP, Perl, JavaScript, and HTML, although I
know HTML 4.1 and XHTML very well. I'm learning Java because we are retiring
Lotus Notes soon, here. I have attempted to learn Python several times. So you
are right that I have many holes in my Computer Science knowledge.
Regarding having a separatist environment, I'm unsure how I feel about that.
When I think about it, this list is sort of a separatist environment that much
of the time discusses how to do things with assistive technology.
The thing I want in a school, I guess, is to be able to have structure, which I
realize I can get in a non-separatist environment, but still have people who
are like me, in that they are also using assistive technology to do what they
do. So maybe I almost already have what I want. Maybe I still buy into the
assumption that blind people need special stuff. I went to school in an
institutional environment, before we had what used to be called mainstreaming.
Does that answer help at all?
Thanks.
Jim
Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here.
Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 8:50 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
programmers
Some reasoning to support this would be helpful. Absolutely no
disrespect meant, but you do not seem to be in the workplace in a
typical software development capacity given your fairly rudimentary
questions on the list about modern programming concepts. That really is
not meant as a criticism, please do not take it as such. Also please
correct me if my observations have lead me to the wrong conclusion. But
usability/accessibility analysis and mainstream software engineering are
like steak and potatoes. Both play an important role in a great meal but
are very different in their preparation. so some additional context for
why you feel a separatist educational environment for programming would
be beneficial would help me understand why you take the position you do.
On 4/8/2011 7:26 AM, Homme, James wrote:
> Hi,
> As someone already in the work place, I think it would be a good thing.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Highmark recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here.
> Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:29 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
> programmers
>
> I also am inclined to agree with this. I'm just finished with school and
> haven't gotten to see first hand just how much of an impact it will have
> in the workforce, I admit, but I know I learned a lot about not just
> programming but about working smoothly on a development team otherwise
> made up of sighted developers by going to a "normal" university for
> CompSci. My fear would be that in a special environment for blind
> programming instruction all the tools used for class would be the most
> accessible ones available. Then a student would get into the work force
> with an employer who doesn't use those ideal accessible tools and the
> student would be ill-equipped to problem solve this challenge. I think
> having a vibrant, active community of blind coders working on things
> like nonvisualdevelopment.org and contributing to forums like this one
> is a great way to help address the unique challenges of being a blind
> coder, but in the grand scheme of things I feel I spend about 10% of my
> time devoted to programming and related pursuits finding blind-friendly
> ways of using tools or environments. The other 90% is the same process
> of learning programming that my sighted peers take on. I also do think
> there would be issues with many employers disregarding or harboring
> skepticism of applicants who listed a specialized school for blind
> people on a resumé. Still, a good idea to kick around and get a variety
> of prospectives on.
> On 4/7/2011 3:23 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> I agree with this as well.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:08 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>> programmers
>>
>> I have to say this even though I think there is a place for what you're
>> thinking of.
>>
>> I hate sepertive schools. One of the things that made me a good programmer
>> was competing against the people I would be competing against in the work
>> world In the academic world.
>>
>> The salt Lake community college had a class run by novel that taught blind
>> people to code for Novel OS but I found the students that came out of their
>> knew a single thing and not very well.
>>
>> Now with that said if the standards are high enough a school like this could
>> be a good benefit but you have to be careful not to dumb down both the speed
>> of learning or quality thereof. Of course that is true for all schools.
>>
>> One last thing though that the regular schools taught me. That is part of
>> life as a blind coder is finding ways to cope with problems that you run
>> into. If you have things handed to you, you might not be as affective when
>> you get out in the work world.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> Ken
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox
>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:03 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>> programmers
>>
>> This is still in the dumb-idea phase, and I don't have any funding
>> lined up to get this started. That said...
>>
>> I have not been able to find any on-line school for teaching blind
>> people to become professional programmers. I feel the world needs
>> such an organization. I am not able to start such a school myself,
>> but I would be interested in assisting social entrepreneurs in
>> starting such a venture. I it would best be implemented as a
>> for-profit social entrepreneurial venture. You can read about social
>> entrepreneurs here:
>>
>> http://www.ashoka.org/social_entrepreneur
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entrepreneurship
>>
>> I'm thinking it could be a Low Profit Corporation (LPC) founded to run
>> the school for a profit. Everyone hired in teaching or management
>> would be vision impaired or blind. Students would attend classes
>> on-line, and could be anywhere in the world. Classes would not be
>> free (maybe $1,000 per 1-semester course?). Students who are too poor
>> to pay would be expected to do well in their courses and make up their
>> fees by assisting teaching of those courses in later semesters. They
>> might also be required to work for an associated consulting company to
>> earn tuition. Students would be encouraged to help mentor each other
>> in any case.
>>
>> Associated with the school could be a software consulting services
>> company. The company would only hire vision impaired programmers, and
>> students wanting to work for the company could take classes designed
>> to train them in the skills they'll need. The company might encourage
>> it's employees to spend one day a week on FOSS projects of their
>> interest, which hopefully would include improving accessibility.
>>
>> Rough numbers to back up the idea: There are around 15 million people
>> with "severe" vision impairments in the US. Roughly half of those
>> people are too old. Half of the rest may have other impairments that
>> would prevent them from becoming programmers. In the general
>> population, there are 1 programmer out of every 500 people in the US.
>> I would expect a ratio at least that high among the blind, or about
>> 7,500 professional programmers in the US alone. If we took 20 years
>> to train that many, it'd be 375 new students per year, and assuming a
>> two year program, we'd have 750 students. If only half paid the class
>> fees, but took three classes at a time (a full load), that'd be
>> $3,000*750*2 = $4.5 million per year. My kids go to a school which
>> happens to have about 750 students and a budget of just over $4
>> million per year, and that includes paying for a school. So, that
>> math seems to work out, but we're not talking about anyone making a
>> billion dollars in this effort. This is not a VC-fundable idea, but
>> it might attract funding from groups that invest in socially
>> beneficial startups.
>>
>> I know a couple of good candidates to start this school, and one might
>> be interested in actually doing it. Are there any good blind or
>> vision impaired people you guys could recommend for me to talk to? I
>> think the key would be finding the right couple of guys.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
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