I want to point out I have this little word called grin at the end of my statement it was meant to be a jab like joke and most people on this list know that I am a little less serious than I should be. Now I do this because 90% of my day is dealing with machines that are really unfriendly to jokes so I have to let it out somewhere. Of course I don't mind when people jump my case either. So let the spit hit the fan. ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie McBride Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 12:37 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind programmers osm=offscreen model. On 4/7/11, John G <jglists0@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > this really is unnecessary, and that is all I have to say on the subject. > Kind regards, > John > > >>Um radio on acb can be interactive a long time back someone invented this >>thing called phones. Grin. >> >>Ken >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John G >>Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 8:25 PM >>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind >>programmers >> >>But this would be interactive. For example, a lab >>session on visual studio. the students would be >>given exercises to complete during the session >>while the instructor would be there on hand to >>help those having access issues, that sort of thing. >>John >> >> >> >I had thought of doing a programming radio show on acbradio but I thought >>it >> >was to geaky. >> > >> >Ken >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John G >> >Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 5:05 PM >> >To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind >> >programmers >> > >> > >> >What does the list think of the idea of a live >> >audio channel as an extension of programming >> >Blind and nonvisualdevelopment.org? >> >Skype, TeamTalk offer two ways of achieving this goal. >> >With the wealth of knowledge on this list I'm >> >sure it could become an invaluable source of learning. >> >Interactive sessions, lectures if you like, could >> >range from accessibility matters to straitforward software engineering. >> >for example, programming with VS and JFW or >> >Window-Eyes, the basics of programming, >> >programming in Java, object oriented analysis and >> >design, databases, the list goes on. >> >Such a scheme would require organisation and >> >discipline to pull off but I have no doubt we've plenty of both on PB. >> > >> >Kind regards, >> >John >> > >> > >I also am inclined to agree with this. I'm just >> > >finished with school and haven't gotten to see >> > >first hand just how much of an impact it will >> > >have in the workforce, I admit, but I know I >> > >learned a lot about not just programming but >> > >about working smoothly on a development team >> > >otherwise made up of sighted developers by going >> > >to a "normal" university for CompSci. My fear >> > >would be that in a special environment for blind >> > >programming instruction all the tools used for >> > >class would be the most accessible ones >> > >available. Then a student would get into the >> > >work force with an employer who doesn't use >> > >those ideal accessible tools and the student >> > >would be ill-equipped to problem solve this >> > >challenge. I think having a vibrant, active >> > >community of blind coders working on things like >> > >nonvisualdevelopment.org and contributing to >> > >forums like this one is a great way to help >> > >address the unique challenges of being a blind >> > >coder, but in the grand scheme of things I feel >> > >I spend about 10% of my time devoted to >> > >programming and related pursuits finding >> > >blind-friendly ways of using tools or >> > >environments. The other 90% is the same process >> > >of learning programming that my sighted peers >> > >take on. I also do think there would be issues >> > >with many employers disregarding or harboring >> > >skepticism of applicants who listed a >> > >specialized school for blind people on a resumé. >> > >Still, a good idea to kick around and get a variety of prospectives on. >> > >On 4/7/2011 3:23 PM, Sina Bahram wrote: >> > >>I agree with this as well. >> > >> >> > >>Take care, >> > >>Sina >> > >> >> > >>-----Original Message----- >> > >>From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry >> > >>Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:08 PM >> > >>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >>Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to >> > >>start a school for blind programmers >> > >> >> > >>I have to say this even though I think there is a place for what >> > >> you're >> > >>thinking of. >> > >> >> > >>I hate sepertive schools. One of the things that made me a good >> >programmer >> > >>was competing against the people I would be competing against in the >>work >> > >>world In the academic world. >> > >> >> > >>The salt Lake community college had a class run by novel that taught >>blind >> > >>people to code for Novel OS but I found the students that came out of >> >their >> > >>knew a single thing and not very well. >> > >> >> > >>Now with that said if the standards are high enough a school like this >> >could >> > >>be a good benefit but you have to be careful not to dumb down both the >> >speed >> > >>of learning or quality thereof. Of course that is true for all >> > >> schools. >> > >> >> > >>One last thing though that the regular schools taught me. That is >> > >> part >>of >> > >>life as a blind coder is finding ways to cope with problems that you >> > >> run >> > >>into. If you have things handed to you, you might not be as affective >> >when >> > >>you get out in the work world. >> > >> >> > >>Ken >> > >> >> > >>Ken >> > >>-----Original Message----- >> > >>From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox >> > >>Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:03 PM >> > >>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >>Subject: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind >> > >>programmers >> > >> >> > >>This is still in the dumb-idea phase, and I don't have any funding >> > >>lined up to get this started. That said... >> > >> >> > >>I have not been able to find any on-line school for teaching blind >> > >>people to become professional programmers. I feel the world needs >> > >>such an organization. I am not able to start such a school myself, >> > >>but I would be interested in assisting social entrepreneurs in >> > >>starting such a venture. I it would best be implemented as a >> > >>for-profit social entrepreneurial venture. You can read about social >> > >>entrepreneurs here: >> > >> >> > >>http://www.ashoka.org/social_entrepreneur >> > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entrepreneurship >> > >> >> > >>I'm thinking it could be a Low Profit Corporation (LPC) founded to run >> > >>the school for a profit. Everyone hired in teaching or management >> > >>would be vision impaired or blind. Students would attend classes >> > >>on-line, and could be anywhere in the world. Classes would not be >> > >>free (maybe $1,000 per 1-semester course?). Students who are too poor >> > >>to pay would be expected to do well in their courses and make up their >> > >>fees by assisting teaching of those courses in later semesters. They >> > >>might also be required to work for an associated consulting company to >> > >>earn tuition. Students would be encouraged to help mentor each other >> > >>in any case. >> > >> >> > >>Associated with the school could be a software consulting services >> > >>company. The company would only hire vision impaired programmers, and >> > >>students wanting to work for the company could take classes designed >> > >>to train them in the skills they'll need. The company might encourage >> > >>it's employees to spend one day a week on FOSS projects of their >> > >>interest, which hopefully would include improving accessibility. >> > >> >> > >>Rough numbers to back up the idea: There are around 15 million people >> > >>with "severe" vision impairments in the US. Roughly half of those >> > >>people are too old. Half of the rest may have other impairments that >> > >>would prevent them from becoming programmers. In the general >> > >>population, there are 1 programmer out of every 500 people in the US. >> > >>I would expect a ratio at least that high among the blind, or about >> > >>7,500 professional programmers in the US alone. If we took 20 years >> > >>to train that many, it'd be 375 new students per year, and assuming a >> > >>two year program, we'd have 750 students. If only half paid the class >> > >>fees, but took three classes at a time (a full load), that'd be >> > >>$3,000*750*2 = $4.5 million per year. My kids go to a school which >> > >>happens to have about 750 students and a budget of just over $4 >> > >>million per year, and that includes paying for a school. So, that >> > >>math seems to work out, but we're not talking about anyone making a >> > >>billion dollars in this effort. This is not a VC-fundable idea, but >> > >>it might attract funding from groups that invest in socially >> > >>beneficial startups. >> > >> >> > >>I know a couple of good candidates to start this school, and one might >> > >>be interested in actually doing it. Are there any good blind or >> > >>vision impaired people you guys could recommend for me to talk to? I >> > >>think the key would be finding the right couple of guys. >> > >> >> > >>Thanks, >> > >>Bill >> > >>__________ >> > >>View the list's information and change your settings at >> > >>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > >> >> > >>__________ >> > >>View the list's information and change your settings at >> > >>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > >> >> > >>__________ >> > >>View the list's information and change your settings at >> > >>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > > >> > >__________ >> > >View the list's information and change your >> > >settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > >> >__________ >> >View the list's information and change your settings at >> >//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > >> >__________ >> >View the list's information and change your settings at >> >//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >>__________ >>View the list's information and change your settings at >>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >>__________ >>View the list's information and change your settings at >>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > -- Blame the computer--why not? It can't defend itself & occasionally might even be the culprit Jackie McBride Jaws Scripting training materials: www.screenreaderscripting.com homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind