[opendtv] Re: New Thread: What becomes of Legacy Analog Equipment

Mark Aitken says (inline...)

Bob Miller wrote:

One transmitter maybe more later.

I'm waiting for DVB-SH ;-)
Any of the 11 or 20 proposals, bring them on. As long as they use MPEG2 and are receivable by all current 8-VSB receivers.
Any of the proposals do not "break" current receivers, they just (as Craig put it) 'steal' bits from the main/standard VSB channel.
If we are talking a new version of 8-VSB that breaks any legacy receivers and works with MPEG4 that is another story. I am and have always been open to any modulation that works.
Broadcaster could (today) provide one MPEG2 SDTV quality signal today, and commit the rest to AVC if they wished. Just aren't receivers that could do much with it...
But we are only talking of the current 8-VSB standard which has to work with legacy receivers and MPEG2. That is the whole argument. As soon as you break with that you might as well consider all state of the art modulations and codecs and the possibility of mandating that receivers can be updated to some degree to what we know may be coming down the line within reasonable cost.
The only command is one MPEG2 encoded channel of equivalent quality...the rest of the bits can be anything! 
All things we advocated in 1999.

Who started the band-wagon you hopped onto?
One of the strongest arguments to stay with the current 8-VSB would be that legacy receivers can upgrade to say MPEG4. The fact that they can't is one of the strongest arguments today to abandon 8-VSB and it gets stronger and stronger as receiver prices fall for all modulations.
(regards MPEG4) It is not an issue of 'can't'. There is NOT a technical barrier, it is a business barrier based on current business.
High priced 8-VSB STB's were one of the main arguments for not reconsidering the US modulation in 2000 even though there were few such receivers. A strong argument can be made today that since receiver prices are getting very low in price the individual cost to switch is getting very small compared to the potential gain.
Yeah, keep trying. With analog shutdown just 448 days away, not sure how anyone thinks (believes) they could pull anything off... 

Bob Miller
On Nov 27, 2007 1:03 PM, John Willkie <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: 

    You mean that's what the 11 proposals for h/h being sorted out by
    ATSC TSG/S4 is all about?  I do believe you are talking about
    legacy proposals, not the trade offs of today.


    I'll leave aside your predictions about DTMB being operational by
    Christmas.  At best, you're talking about one transmitter.


    John Willkie


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    *De:* opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] * En nombre de *Bob Miller
    *Enviado el:* Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:54 AM

    *Para:* opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    *Asunto:* [opendtv] Re: New Thread: What becomes of Legacy Analog
    Equipment


    And when you are talking alternative modulations today it is a
    moving target. The trade off today is not between DVB-T and ATSC
    but between DVB-T2 coupled with MPEG4 or DTMB and MPEG4 and ATSC
    crippled with A-VSB and MPEG2.

    No contest.

    Any realistic comparison in any real world test between these
    standards would doom any concoction of 8-VSB saddled as it is with
    legacy receivers.

    Just allowing the US broadcast system to use MPEG4 would increase
    the value of the US OTA spectrum below channel 51 so much that it
    probably would pass the tipping point that would make it a valid
    competitor to cable and satellite used right even using 8-VSB.

    But of course you can't go there because logic says if you
    sacrifice legacy receivers that opens the pandora's box of all
    modulations being considered. After all if you are going to dump
    all current receivers why not upgrade everything to the best it
    can be.

    DTMB should be operational in the US by Christmas. The testing is
    to compare DVB-T to DTMB. You want to test 8-VSB or A-VSB against
    them in the open air and the bright light of day? It could happen.
    I am calling all 8-VSB types chicken. They were before, they are
    today and they will be tomorrow. I give them one thing, they are
    smart enough to stay chicken.

    Bob Miller

    On Nov 27, 2007 11:55 AM, John Shutt <shuttj@xxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:shuttj@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

    Bert,

    Combine 1999 guard interval performance of DVB-T, add in 2007 blind
    equalizers, and what do you get?  Still something far superior to
    ATSC.

    ATSC still cannot do mobile at all, and the A-VSB and E-VSB
    schemes proposed
    come with a much higher bitrate hit than DVB-T HM.

    DVB-T still has a full continuum of bitrate vs. robustness that is
    settable
    by each individual broadcaster to meet their perceived needs.
     ATSC does
    not.

    I told you 5 years ago and I will repeat it today:  Even if every ATSC
    reception issue was solved, I would still prefer DVB-T because of
    it's built
    in flexibility it affords the broadcaster.

    John


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Manfredi, Albert E" <albert.e.manfredi@xxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:albert.e.manfredi@xxxxxxxxxx>>

    > The facts are, one by one all the oft-repeated objections to
    8-VSB have
    > dropped by the wayside, as was predictable from fairly early on. The
    > dreaded cliff effect remains, of course, which affects all modulation
    > schemes. It would be great to do another comparison test now, but
    since
    > no one would benefit from it, it won't happen. Alas.



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Regards,
Mark A. Aitken
Director, Advanced Technology

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