[lit-ideas] Re: Victor Hanson in Iraq

  • From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:30:38 -0000

But where do you stop Eric?

If the Germans had learnt their lesson according to your ethos, they wouldn't have created the common market with the French they'd have launched into another war in the fifties or sixties. Surely the Japanese would have gone berserk after Hiroshima and Nagasaki rather than establishing one of the most successful twentieth century economies.

It seems to me you are creating theories out of US experience. Your German exposition below handily leaves out what did happen to Germany after WWII and in noting the fact of their WWI defeat fails to note the manner of the defeat that was inflicted on Germany; a lesson learnt after WWII.

It isn't defeat per se that we need to worry about, but the policies that led to it. Vietnam was a bad policy for the US and I've no doubt it could be shown to have led to its defeat. In the same way Iraq was also a bad policy that seems to be leading to defeat. The victory, if there is one, will come in the future when another set of incompetants think it might be a good idea to wage war under false pretences.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Yost" <eyost1132@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 9:40 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Victor Hanson in Iraq


"Defeat is always worse than any terrible policy that engenders it.
Defeat leads to even more terrible policies, and ever more defeatist
sentiment."

Pouncing on the exception that proves the rule, Simon writes:

Germany kills six million jews because of a racist dictatorship. Bad policy
for sure but...etc.

_____


Consider the origin of Nazism in the defeat of Germany in WW1. That defeat in WW1 led to the terrible policies of the Nazis, who were hearkening back to an Aryan master race myth to assuage the despair brought about by that defeat. Scapegoating Jews, gays, gypsies, communists for the humiliation of that defeat decades after the fact.

Sure, victory in some insane fascist cause is not good, but that's not what we have in the present case. We have a post-9/11 war started on faulty intelligence and false bravado, which was then grossly mishandled, creating humanitarian disaster, and encouraging al-Qaeda and other forces to make that disaster worse, such as when they murdered the UN envoy in Baghdad and drove the UN forces from the country.

Yet to argue as Mike does that defeat is really a victory ... is bull. Defeat is defeat; there is nothing standing outside a culture, no Olympus from where we can claim defeat is really a victory. Our defeat is our defeat. To claim we are worse than the enemy is simply bad judgment grown from a lifetime of alienation.

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