[lit-ideas] Re: Vanunu's Secret
- From: "carol kirschenbaum" <cskir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:20:19 -0700
Andreas typed:
> Since when has Israel been a "US satellite"?
ck: I meant that to be between quotes, though I didn't think the statement
needed quotes anymore, frankly. Seems acknowledged as a de facto condition,
for as long as I can remember--which is just about when Israel came into
official existence. But perhaps this view is a longtime, old Jewish one.
Certainly Sharon, among others in Israel, resents it, and makes a point of
saying he doesn't care what the US thinks. That would be a new one for
Israel.
It's been a loose cannon, and
> generally more dangerous to its friends than its enemies.
ck: Israel doesn't really have any nations as "friends" other than the US.
Britain supports Israel, for the most part, but not economically. That's
been one of America's roles, too, throughout the decades.
> It would have been far better for the US to never have been involved with
> Israel at all.
ck: Now you're stating opinion. Your opinion. I was stating fact. Whether or
not I agree with the state of Israel's policies is another matter. And
whether you like it or not, Israel has been a US project.
>We would not be in such serious difficulties with the Arab
> world.
ck: You have no way of knowing that. The Arab world is not retaliating
against the US merely because of Israel vs. Palestinians. The Arab world had
and has had plenty of gripes against the US, on various grounds, quite aside
from its support of Israel.
>9.11 would not have happened at all.
ck: So you know why 9/11 happened. You and the jerk of a neighbor who blamed
me, personally, for the disaster. "The Jews" made it happen. Wrong.
Apparently Al Qaeda made it happen, and the reasoning of an anti-Jewish,
anti-Christian terrorist organization is not what I'd call rational. Nor are
its methods. Opining "why" 9/11 happened, in this simplistic way, is
patently anti-Jewish and illogical.
It's just as useless as saying that 9/11 would not have happened if there
had been no WTC. It would not have happened if Osama bin Laden had not been
born, etc.
>Israel is a global pariah.
ck: Big surprise. The Jews have always been global pariahs. What's your
point? The US should be like other worthy nations and zap the Jews? Then
would the US be the popular, beloved nation it isn't--and very, very often
has not been?
> Israel knowingly and intentionally attacked an American
> naval vessel, killing some two dozen sailors.
ck: This was awful, cockeyed, and very strange, yes. I don't know why the US
let Israel off the hook here, and neither do you. Something else going on--a
greater cause, or whatever. Obviously, though, the US still found Israel
more useful than not, or it would have been blitzed. I suspect some deal was
cut, or a plausible explanation for a big mistake. Knowingly? Wittingly
attacked the US? This I doubt. A crazy, maybe...
>Israel spies on the USA.
ck: The USA spies on the USA, Andreas! Our spies spy on each other. Our
corporations spy on each other. This is no different from other countries.
They also cooperate, when it's in their mutual best interests to do so. You
can be damned sure that the US has plenty of spies monitoring Israel, of
course.
> Israel forces the USA to take extremely difficult and unpopular positions.
ck: Come off it. Nobody "forces" the US to take any positions its leaders
don't want to take. What leverage does Israel have? (Warning: If you play
the "Jews run the world" card, you're out of the game.)
> Israel is currently murdering its political opponents, and the USA is
forced
> to support that.
ck: The US is trying to murder *its own* political opponents--Osama--as it
targeted and murdered Saddam's sons. Only the US can't seem to get Osama.
Perhaps the Bush admin doesn't condemn Israel forcefully because it's
following the US's lead, only more effectively. Do *not* mistake my
arguments for a defense of Israel's (or America's) assassinations, please.
> Its "strategic position" should be valuable? Saudi Arabia is far more
> "strategically placed" and we get along better with them.
ck: And 15 of the 20 (19) terrorists directly involved in the 9/11 attacks
were born in Saudi Arabia, yet the US didn't attack Saudi Arabia but Iraq.
What's your point? Clearly the US has given the Saudis a major pass in this
instance. Political friends.
> The Christian Right supports Israel, but
> for the most bizarre reason: they want to provoke the Apocalypse,
whereupon
> Israel and the Jews will get their Final Solution, in which the Merciful
and
> Loving Christian God destroys Israel and throws the Jews into an eternal
> Hell.
ck: Check your Apocalypse again. It begins in the region of Israel, but the
entire world is destroyed, not just the Jews. It's the end of everything
corporeal, and it's considered a good thing by the born again evangelicals.
Bizarre? I'd say so, yes, but that's their belief. Again, when people's
beliefs, however bizarre, serve each others' political purposes, that's
common ground for coordinated action. "Friends," in political parlance. The
US has made all sorts of delightful friends over the years. Saddam was one
of them, of course. But, as we see, those friendships can shift in a blink.
>And that's Israel's "friends", incl. Mr. Bush, Mr. Ashcroft, and
> others, who deeply believe that.
ck: As you well know, this is extremely troubling for Jewish liberals
throughout the world. Indeed, the whole mess in Israel, and the Israeli
government's position, is horribly troubling for Jewish people like me (and
for humanistic, fair-minded Israelis as well). But there's a limit. I cannot
support Israel's policies any more than I can support the Bush admin's.
The difference between our positions, Andreas, is that I wish there were a
peaceful solution in Israel, for all concerned. I just don't see this
happening, though, for the Arabs have sworn to annihilate the Jews.
(Longstanding vow.) You believe that the Jews have no place in Israel,
apparently, and they should leave, I guess. I hope that doesn't have to be
the case, as I have a deeply sentimental desire to retain something like a
"homeland" for Jewish people. (As worldwide pariahs, we could use one.)
But Israel is now desperate--as desperate as the Palestinians. Israel knows
it's doomed, and it's vowed to go down fighting. In a sense, both sides in
this ongoing battle are doomed to mutual suicide. Israel's current
strategy--killing leaders of anti-Zionist orgs--is brutal, on the one hand,
and fair, in a war context, on the other. Assassination of policymakers is
on a different ethical plane than blowing up buses of schoolchildren.
Is Israel more hated for each assassination? Absolutely. From Israel's point
of view, that doesn't matter--it's going to be hated no matter what it does,
or doesn't do. It's a fight to the death. Israel hopes against all reason
(and all the numbers) that it will prevail. If it doesn't, the consequences
for world jewry may be more than the totality of Jewish history can bear.
If you believe that I'm inured to the horrendous violence by Israel against
the Palestinians, you're wrong. I don't condone it, by any means. In the
matter of Israel, I recognize that I have a sentimental stake, and I fear
the loss of Israel. That doesn't mean I wish harm to any Palestinian,
however.
Carol, who glad she's not a politiciani
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