[lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience

You should have been a politician Lawrence. You're so adept at avoiding the 
question. In this instance you try and pour scorn on the questioner.

Here's what Jeremy Paxman would do: he'd ask the question again. And again. And 
again. So:

Do you accept that the war in Iraq has created more fundamentlists than there 
were before? 

"In the meantime we must deal with the world as it is.  Not all nations are 
presently Liberal Democracies.  Pakistan is not a Liberal Democracy.  We know 
that.  Everyone knows that.  We must deal with Pakistan as it exists, not as we 
would like it to be."

This made me laugh, it really did, especially the last sentence. Here we have a 
country that, along with Afghanistan and, arguably, Saudi Arabia, was the most 
responsible for 9/11, a country that is a dictatorship, a country that is one 
of the principle centres of mulsim extremism, and what was the US 
response...let's be allies. Meanwhile, there's Iraq, a country not responsible 
for 9/11, a country without WMD, but with a ruler who pissed off Bush and which 
happens to have a load of oil and what was the US response...let's invade. 

That's the hypocracy Lawrence, or it would be if this was a war on terror, or a 
war for liberal democracy.

"And then you conclude with the belief that I will be speechless as a result of 
your brilliant analyses: [     ] "

Ah now Lawrence, you see that was a debating tactic, to make sure you wouldn't 
actually walk away again...

Simon
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lawrence Helm 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:15 AM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience


  Simon



  I was so appalled at the ignorance of the first part of your message that I 
neglected the ignorance in the rest of it.  



  You seem unable to grasp the difference between a hypothesis (advancing a 
theory of what the future will consist of) and current diplomatic demands.  I 
suspect many on the Lit-Ideas Left of not being able to read my entire 
messages, but maybe it is worse than that with you.  Maybe you can't follow an 
extended argument.  I don't know how else to account for the silly thing you 
wrote in your paragraph that begins "As for Pakistan. . . "



  Of course if you have neither read nor understood my previous posts on this 
subject, you won't understand this one either, nevertheless -- since you have 
my attention -- you need to see that there are two very different matters:



    1.. The theory that Liberal Democracy is the End of History was developed 
by Fukuyama and has a certain degree of currency at the present time.  It is 
opposed by Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilization thesis.  These are 
theories.  Neither of them is proved.  It would be nice if all nations were 
Liberal Democracies, but that is not presently the case.  


    2.. In the meantime we must deal with the world as it is.  Not all nations 
are presently Liberal Democracies.  Pakistan is not a Liberal Democracy.  We 
know that.  Everyone knows that.  We must deal with Pakistan as it exists, not 
as we would like it to be.  


  Beyond that I didn't apologize for Pakistan.  You are making that up.  Did 
you think I wouldn't notice?  I suppose this is another case of your not 
reading my note and just guessing as to what I was going to say.  I'm very 
familiar with that approach.  But anyone wishing to can see what I actually 
said, two notes below this one, and see that you are either lying or as I 
believe guessing because you can't bear to read my notes.



  The world is not made up of Liberal Democracies.  Perhaps one day it will be, 
or perhaps not.  In the meantime we must on occasion exercise realpolitik, in 
other words deal with nations we don't like but can't change.  Listen to Irene, 
she is urging us to use realpolitik with Iran: getting Bush to sit down with 
Ahmadinejad over a cup of coffee and having a heart to heart.



  And then you conclude with the belief that I will be speechless as a result 
of your brilliant analyses: [     ]  



  Lawrence




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