Lawrence, I do not define "terrorism" as "a terrorist attack against the US on US soil". It seems you do. You should be ashamed Judy ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience Simon, Simon, Simon. Didn't you know that anecdotal evidence is the weakest kind? Allow me to illustrate: The War in Iraq has decreased terrorism. How do I know? Well just look at the facts. The US was attacked how many times before Iraq? Lots of times. There was the Cole. There were 241 Marines killed in Beirut. There was the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 and then the second that killed about 3000, but then we had the war in Iraq and zip. Not one attack against the US; so it is pretty obvious that the war in Iraq has decreased terrorism. The rest of your note is a bit incoherent. What do "oil interests" have to do with Iraq? American oil interests? What are you talking about? We get only a small percentage of our oil from the Middle East. I think you are remembering one of the earliest Leftist taunts; subsequently given up by most Leftists because it is so absurd. As to Pakistan, time passes. We needed cooperation in chasing Al Queda because Pakistan ISI agents reported that Al Quaeda had two suitcase bombs; so we threatened to bomb them into the Stone Age using Armitage and giving the president deniability. But Musharaff picked his time, a time when it wasn't possible for the US to bomb Pakistan into the Stone Age, a time when Bush seemed to be on the defensive in regard to the war against Militant Islam and blew the whistle: "do you know what Armitage told us? He said he would bomb us into the Stone Age." "What," Bush said. "Nonsense. Not me." And so Musharaff exposes the threat and makes it difficult for the US to initiate military action in Pakistan; which it has considered doing if it knew exactly where Osama was. I don't know how the subsequent meetings between Musharaff and Karzai went. Musharaff has problems at home: lots of support there for the Taliban and Militant Islam. I think the recent meetings were a good thing if they didn't make things worse between Musharaff and Karzai. Both nations have problems, but they aren't out of hand. Karzai continues to need direct US support. Musharaff doesn't want US troops storming into Pakistan going after Al Quaeda strong holds. India is laughing. Lawrence ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Simon Ward Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:58 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience It's not just the extremists in the middle east that are the problem. It's also the home grown ones. How do I know there are more extremists. Because they blew up trains in London and Madrid and because I've heard interviews with muslims in Britain who cite the Iraq war as a major contributing factor in the formation of their views. And yes, there are moderate muslims all over the world. They're the ones trying to explain that the extremists don't represent Islam, they're the ones saying how they never knew that their friend was involved. But they're also the same ones pointing at Iraq and saying how they understand why this is going on. Whilst I can believe that there were undisclosed reason why the US went into Iraq, I can't believe that if they hadn't been there, the decision wouldn't have been made. And if there are reasons such as Saudi cooperation, isn't it reasonable that there are reasons such as oil markets. As for Pakistan, one of the people recently arrested in the UK decided to stop giving evidence in court because the ISI were threatening his family. Work that one through and then tell me that Pakistan is cooperating. Simon ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:56 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience Assertions are cheap. They don't cost anything and if there isn't a hint of rationale, they mean less. In one of my previous notes I described how difficult it was to get information about whether there were some, many, or no moderates in the Middle East, but you have no trouble in asserting that Iraq has increased the number of Islamists in the Middle East. Upon what do you base this assertion of yours? I see you are assuming the existence of moderates in the Middle East. Do you have any evidence that they exist? Quote me one moderate writer writing from within the Middle East. If you can, you'll be one up on Omar. That the war in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 is simplistic. The same person who told us we threatened to bomb Pakistan into the stone age (I reported this while reading America's Secret War, by George Friedman in January 2005) reported that going into Iraq was absolutely necessary if we wanted to get cooperation from the Saudi's in our pursuit of Al Quaeda members. At the time the Saudis would not cooperate with us because they were more afraid of Saddam than they were of us. Saddam's story was that he had backed down the US so everyone in the vicinity needed to forget about the US and pay attention to him. After we went into Iraq we got cooperation from the Saudi's. At the time it was believed (Friedman is the source for this also) that Al Quaeda had two suitcase bombs; so cooperation in tracking down Al Quaeda members was not considered an option. That wasn't the only reason we went into Iraq, there were many reasons, but it was an important reason not mentioned; just as we never mentioned we got the cooperation we wanted from Pakistan by threatening to bomb them into the stone age. Lawrence ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Simon Ward Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:50 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience Lawrence, my assertion is a simple one. The war in Iraq has caused moderate muslims to be attracted to fundamentalist ideology. Because of the war (which, it should be noted, had nothing to do with 9/11), there are now more fundamentalist muslims than there were before. Because of the war in Iraq, people died in Madrid and London. Now, you'll be blaming Qutb for coming up with the ideology, but of course, the moderates wouldn't be interested in it without them perceiving western wrong-doing. Do you accept that the war in Iraq has created more fundamentlists than there were before? Simon ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience Simon: You forget that this all stated with Judy quibbling over my reference to Sayyid Qutb's ideology being the root cause of modern Militant Islam. What on earth did I mean by "root cause," etc., etc. Well, I explained that. But, said someone who hadn't read Qutb, what about what the West did to the Middle East in modern times? Well, said someone who had read Qutb, Qutb deals with that in some detail. So this quibble seemed to dwindle into whether there was something the West had done to the Middle East that Qutb hadn't covered, but you, who had not read Qutb persevered in asserting that there was much, much, much that Qutb hadn't covered that the west had done to the Middle East that had caused the Islamists to behave as they do. Yawn And then when I introduce something real, something not the vague speculation you have hitherto engaged in, something going on right now in Germany, you sniff, "sorry, but I'm not playing hypotheticals . . ." Gosh, Simon, what do you think you have been playing? Not fact because you haven't read Qutb and haven't all this time known what you were talking about. Lawrence -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Simon Ward Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:57 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience Sliding out of it again Lawrence? Wouldn't expect anything else, but then I suppose I did give you the opportunity. More fool me. Sorry, but I'm not playing hypotheticals and also reject you're accusation of wishful thinking. Do you really think I'd be pleased to note that the Iraq War has served to turn so many moderates into fundamentalists. I can imagine how that might please you, but not me I assure you. Simon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.4/449 - Release Date: 15/09/2006