My mind hasn't changed about any of this as far as I know. I'm afraid I haven't your fervid interest in this quibble. I haven't reread Qutb. My opinion about the pervasiveness of Qutb's writings hasn't changed. As to the moderates, I discussed them most with Omar, as I recall. I said that I had almost no evidence of them in the Middle East -- at least not from nations besides Afghanistan and Iraq. I challenged him to produce one Moderate writing from within the Middle East (aside from people living in Iraq and Afghanistan). He could not, at least he did not. So how do we account for this, I asked him? Are moderates just timid, afraid to face the Islamists who are ready to kill them? Or do these so-called Moderates agree with the Islamists, and have they perhaps agreed with them all along, meaning do Moderates really exist? Of course none of us can know these things with certainty for no one takes polls and no one speaks freely to reporters, and no one writes about his thoughts with candor. As to what the West does having an effect on the Islamists (or moderates who sympathize with the Islamists), they have always been good at propaganda. Osama bin Laden pointed to Iraq and bemoaned the sanctions placed on the poor Iraqis, on the starving children, but he was especially outraged that the US was in Saudi Arabia (having planes there to over-fly Iraq to keep Saddam from destroying the Kurds and Shiites). All of those things were used by Osama and other Islamists for propaganda purposes. Some historians have argued that we need to do nothing more than exist as the most successful nation to have Islamists hate us. Would you have us cease to exist to placate the Islamists? Lawrence _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Simon Ward Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:47 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience No, Lawrence, your typical response has been to deny that whatever the west does in it's war against Islamic terrorism could or would have an effect on those who are moderates. In a recent post, for the first time, you appeared to concede that muslims might react to events and now, you further concede that 'it isn't just ideology'. So have your views changed Lawrence, or were you merely arguing a position you didn't really agree with. Simon ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ideology vs Experience Surely I've responded to all these things. It isn't merely ideology, but on the other hand it could not exist without ideology. As it happens it is this particular ideology, the ideology of Sayyid Qutb, that most of the Islamists have embraced. Since you haven't read Sayyid Qutb you couldn't know, apparently, that if one embraces Qutb, then one embraces his "response to experiences and perceptions in the real world" as he understood them. Lawrence _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Simon Ward Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:23 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Ideology vs Experience Recently, Lawrence sidestepped this issue, so I thought I'd try again. The issue: Is Islamic Terrorism merely a question of ideology, or is it also a response to experiences and perceptions in the real world? To place the question within the context of our recent discussions, the issue resolves around whether war on Iraq has led to less or more Islamic terrorism. Lawrence argues for less. Others, including myself, argue for more. Whilst there is further evidence to bring to the discussion, I'd like to ask Lawrence to state clearly that he agrees with the outline of the issue as it is laid out. If not, what exactly he believes the issue to be. Simon