[bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

From: juddysbuddy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To: "bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 23:10:50 -0400 (EDT)
All braille translation software makes the em dash mistake.  The Engineers
are using Duxbury Braille Translator, and that particluar problem is a qwerk
of that program.

I have the program as well and it makes my bulletins on sunday very
interesting reading sometimes.

Shelley L. Rhodes B.S. Ed, CTVI
and Judson, guiding golden
juddysbuddy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Guide Dogs For the Blind Inc.
Graduate Alumni Association Board
www.guidedogs.com

Dog ownership is like a rainbow.
 Puppies are the joy at one end.
 Old dogs are the treasure at the other.
Carolyn Alexander

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:28 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?


Jake,

I see your point, for the most part. However, if Bookshare did in fact
invest significant time and money into upgrading the braille translation,
how did the m dash issue go by the wayside? Is this truly a difficult issue
to resolve?

Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:26 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?


> Hi Scott,
>    Pratick has in all likelihood already pointed out BookShare's position.
> Trying to preserve the original text as closely as possible is a good
> idea.
>    Upgrading the Braille translation is always possible in the future. For
> those skeptical, I point out that BookShare invested significant time last
> year to produce better formatted Braille files.
>    Also, think of it this way, if you get rid of em dashes, nothing will
> ever put them back. Some folks who use DAISY might even be confused when
> encountering double dashes, and that implies a different style of writing
> than does using the em dash. Bottom line is that yes, it's a minor change,
> but it is a change nonetheless.
>
> What exactly is appearing in the Braille files, verses what should be?
> Bringing specifics like this to my attention will help Gerald and I when
> we attempt to punch out some lists of things that need to be addressed.
> Telling a programmer, hey em dashes aren't coming out right, isn't as
> helpful as telling him/her what is coming out rather than what should be.
>
> Jake
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 2:58 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>
>
>> Currently, I'm handling m dashes as described in Evan's message. I
>> convert m dashes to double dashes when working with the rtf files in MS
>> Word. Is there an official Bookshare position on this?
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:35 PM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>
>>
>>>I don't know what the Braille translator does with them.  As I recall,
>>>it either doesn't display them properly, or it only puts in one dash
>>>instead of two, which is what you should have in the Braille file.  I do
>>>know that in books I scan and read as rtf files, they are not properly
>>>displayed on my Pac Mate.  I generally convert them to double dashes with
>>>a quick search and replace all in Word before sending them up to
>>>Bookshare.
>>>
>>> I'm not changing that.  I don't see why Braille readers should have to
>>> suffer through crummy-looking text because someday some future software
>>> upgrade just might fix the problem - assuming there is one.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:31 AM
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm curious though, which comes out better in braille: m dash, or
>>>> double dash? Does it matter? I seem to specifically remember several
>>>> people on this list encouraging the conversion of m dashes to double
>>>> dashes for the benefit of braille readers.
>>>>
>>>> Can anybody comment?
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Pratik patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:39 AM
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cindy,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please stick with the M-dash character when you enter it.  The
>>>>> automated
>>>>> tools may not support the proper conversion, but, we have to make sure
>>>>> that
>>>>> future versions of those tools do support such conversions.  The
>>>>> em-dash
>>>>> character is a slightly shorter character than the double dash (--).
>>>>> I know
>>>>> we have been working with the formatting to satisfy the stripper
>>>>> requirement; but we should try to take a conservative approach when
>>>>> editting
>>>>> the original text especially when it comes to formatting.  In some
>>>>> cases, we
>>>>> might have to move words around or make slight font changes but we
>>>>> should
>>>>> avoid making other changes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pratik
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pratik Patel
>>>>> Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
>>>>> The City University of New York
>>>>> pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:55 AM
>>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is Lissi right in what she says about two dashes
>>>>> instead of an em dash being easier to read in braile?
>>>>> What about with Daisy? What should I be doing, em dash
>>>>> or double dash?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Estelnalissi <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Jake,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your directions worked perfectly! I'm levitating! We
>>>>>> all know I'm not the
>>>>>> fastest barge on the canal when it comes to
>>>>>> computers, but your instructions
>>>>>> put those m dashes exactly where I needed them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The M dash will be especially easy to remember
>>>>>> because it's insert 4 as you
>>>>>> said for jaws, and then tapping e 4 times to reach m
>>>>>> dash and enter not even
>>>>>> having to go to OK!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also exciting is the fact I saw a slew of items
>>>>>> listed in the insert 4
>>>>>> dialogue box which may turn out to be useful!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The book I'm working on is an Irish memoir. Instead
>>>>>> of using quotes or
>>>>>> apostrophes, there's a dash or m dash before all
>>>>>> quotes and no mark to show
>>>>>> the end of the quote. It's plain in print because
>>>>>> quotes are inserted
>>>>>> farther than the narrative, but I think braille
>>>>>> readers will quickly catch
>>>>>> the pattern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While blissfully making my corrections with the new
>>>>>> command, I noticed that
>>>>>> the scanner read these unique indications of quotes
>>>>>> as dash about half of
>>>>>> the time and M dash the other half with some minus
>>>>>> signs thrown in for
>>>>>> variety. The mixture was random so I made a command
>>>>>> decision to use the
>>>>>> simpler dash to indicate quotes. I'm on page 27 now
>>>>>> and all quotes are
>>>>>> uniformly indicated with a single dash, easier for
>>>>>> me and the reader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the way, when this book is approved, I'm going to
>>>>>> mention that while
>>>>>> anyone interested in quirky humor, Irish culture and
>>>>>> recalling life from
>>>>>> 1959 through 1960 something will like this book, but
>>>>>> the POV, and the
>>>>>> father, a kind of hero to the author will really
>>>>>> appeal to the gritty guys
>>>>>> among the members. I'm entranced, but regularly
>>>>>> amused in spite of myself
>>>>>> and grossed out, too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Always with love,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lissi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for helping me to enjoy another break
>>>>>> through!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:52 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make
>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Hi Lissi,
>>>>>> >    There are two easy ways to insert an em-dash
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If you're using Microsoft Word, you can press
>>>>>> CTRL+ALT+the minus sign on
>>>>>> > the numpad.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If you're using JAWS, you can press INSERT+4 (the
>>>>>> 4 on the regular
>>>>>> > keyboard) and you'll get a list of symbols. Press
>>>>>> the letter e a few times
>>>>>> > and you'll find em dash, then press enter.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > That's all there is to it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Jake
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> > From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:16 PM
>>>>>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] M dash, how to make it?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Dear Volunteer Friends,
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> There was a discussion here about making that
>>>>>> long dash called m dash by
>>>>>> >> Jaws using microsoft word while validating an RTF
>>>>>> file. How to make it
>>>>>> >> with other programs might have been mentioned,
>>>>>> too.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> What I mostly remember is that it was suggested
>>>>>> that just using 2 dashes
>>>>>> >> comes out better for the braille reader in
>>>>>> Bookshare's BRF file of a
>>>>>> >> book. So, I decided that when I had a choice, I'd
>>>>>> use 2 dashes.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> However, the book I'm validating is already
>>>>>> packed with m dashes, so if I
>>>>>> >> fix one, I thought it should match them.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> How do I make an m dash? Occasionally jaws calls
>>>>>> an m dash a minus, and I
>>>>>> >> want to replace the minus signs with m dashes. If
>>>>>> anyone can point me to
>>>>>> >> the answer or remind me how to do this, I'd
>>>>>> appreciate it and save the
>>>>>> >> information in my Bookshare Tips file.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> While I wait to hear about this, I'll mark the
>>>>>> spot and go on. I'm only
>>>>>> >> on page 12, but this book really motivates me to
>>>>>> make good progress.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Hope all of your current endeavors are going
>>>>>> swimmingly. - Smile
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Always with love,
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Lissi
>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
>>>>>> subject line.  To get a list
>>>>>> >> of available commands, put the word 'help' by
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>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --
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>>>>>> Release Date: 6/1/2006
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>
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>
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>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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[bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

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