[bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

Why would nothing ever put them back? You could do a search and replace on the double dashes and replace them with m dashes, just the way the m dashes were replaced in the original. But it's not a major change to put the m dashes back in before I send a book up to Bookshare. At least the copies I scan or validate will look right in my personal library.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:26 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?



Hi Scott,
Pratick has in all likelihood already pointed out BookShare's position. Trying to preserve the original text as closely as possible is a good idea.
Upgrading the Braille translation is always possible in the future. For those skeptical, I point out that BookShare invested significant time last year to produce better formatted Braille files.
Also, think of it this way, if you get rid of em dashes, nothing will ever put them back. Some folks who use DAISY might even be confused when encountering double dashes, and that implies a different style of writing than does using the em dash. Bottom line is that yes, it's a minor change, but it is a change nonetheless.


What exactly is appearing in the Braille files, verses what should be? Bringing specifics like this to my attention will help Gerald and I when we attempt to punch out some lists of things that need to be addressed. Telling a programmer, hey em dashes aren't coming out right, isn't as helpful as telling him/her what is coming out rather than what should be.

Jake

----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?



Currently, I'm handling m dashes as described in Evan's message. I convert m dashes to double dashes when working with the rtf files in MS Word. Is there an official Bookshare position on this?

Scott

----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?



I don't know what the Braille translator does with them. As I recall, it either doesn't display them properly, or it only puts in one dash instead of two, which is what you should have in the Braille file. I do know that in books I scan and read as rtf files, they are not properly displayed on my Pac Mate. I generally convert them to double dashes with a quick search and replace all in Word before sending them up to Bookshare.

I'm not changing that. I don't see why Braille readers should have to suffer through crummy-looking text because someday some future software upgrade just might fix the problem - assuming there is one.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:31 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?



I'm curious though, which comes out better in braille: m dash, or double dash? Does it matter? I seem to specifically remember several people on this list encouraging the conversion of m dashes to double dashes for the benefit of braille readers.

Can anybody comment?

Scott



----- Original Message ----- From: "Pratik patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:39 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?



Cindy,

Please stick with the M-dash character when you enter it. The automated
tools may not support the proper conversion, but, we have to make sure that
future versions of those tools do support such conversions. The em-dash
character is a slightly shorter character than the double dash (--). I know
we have been working with the formatting to satisfy the stripper
requirement; but we should try to take a conservative approach when editting
the original text especially when it comes to formatting. In some cases, we
might have to move words around or make slight font changes but we should
avoid making other changes.


Pratik





Pratik Patel
Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
The City University of New York
pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cindy
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:55 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

Is Lissi right in what she says about two dashes
instead of an em dash being easier to read in braile?
What about with Daisy? What should I be doing, em dash
or double dash?

Cindy

--- Estelnalissi <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dear Jake,

Your directions worked perfectly! I'm levitating! We
all know I'm not the
fastest barge on the canal when it comes to
computers, but your instructions
put those m dashes exactly where I needed them.

The M dash will be especially easy to remember
because it's insert 4 as you
said for jaws, and then tapping e 4 times to reach m
dash and enter not even
having to go to OK!

Also exciting is the fact I saw a slew of items
listed in the insert 4
dialogue box which may turn out to be useful!!

The book I'm working on is an Irish memoir. Instead
of using quotes or
apostrophes, there's a dash or m dash before all
quotes and no mark to show
the end of the quote. It's plain in print because
quotes are inserted
farther than the narrative, but I think braille
readers will quickly catch
the pattern.

While blissfully making my corrections with the new
command, I noticed that
the scanner read these unique indications of quotes
as dash about half of
the time and M dash the other half with some minus
signs thrown in for
variety. The mixture was random so I made a command
decision to use the
simpler dash to indicate quotes. I'm on page 27 now
and all quotes are
uniformly indicated with a single dash, easier for
me and the reader.

By the way, when this book is approved, I'm going to
mention that while
anyone interested in quirky humor, Irish culture and
recalling life from
1959 through 1960 something will like this book, but
the POV, and the
father, a kind of hero to the author will really
appeal to the gritty guys
among the members. I'm entranced, but regularly
amused in spite of myself
and grossed out, too.

Always with love,

Lissi

Thanks for helping me to enjoy another break
through!

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make
it?



> Hi Lissi,
> There are two easy ways to insert an em-dash
>
> If you're using Microsoft Word, you can press
CTRL+ALT+the minus sign on
> the numpad.
>
> If you're using JAWS, you can press INSERT+4 (the
4 on the regular
> keyboard) and you'll get a list of symbols. Press
the letter e a few times
> and you'll find em dash, then press enter.
>
> That's all there is to it.
>
> Jake
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:16 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] M dash, how to make it?
>
>
>> Dear Volunteer Friends,
>>
>> There was a discussion here about making that
long dash called m dash by
>> Jaws using microsoft word while validating an RTF
file. How to make it
>> with other programs might have been mentioned,
too.
>>
>> What I mostly remember is that it was suggested
that just using 2 dashes
>> comes out better for the braille reader in
Bookshare's BRF file of a
>> book. So, I decided that when I had a choice, I'd
use 2 dashes.
>>
>> However, the book I'm validating is already
packed with m dashes, so if I
>> fix one, I thought it should match them.
>>
>> How do I make an m dash? Occasionally jaws calls
an m dash a minus, and I
>> want to replace the minus signs with m dashes. If
anyone can point me to
>> the answer or remind me how to do this, I'd
appreciate it and save the
>> information in my Bookshare Tips file.
>>
>> While I wait to hear about this, I'll mark the
spot and go on. I'm only
>> on page 12, but this book really motivates me to
make good progress.
>>
>> Hope all of your current endeavors are going
swimmingly. - Smile
>>
>> Always with love,
>>
>> Lissi
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to
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>>
>>
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Release Date: 6/1/2006
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