[bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

That's true, we can change them,  I am doing that with a book right now.  But 
you can't do a search and replace to change them because once the book is in 
brf form, there is no way to distinguish between the hyphens that should be 
double dashes, and the ones that should be left alone.

It's not a big deal, as I have said, but either what Jake and Pratik have said 
today is true, or what is on the Volunteer Tips site is true.  They surely 
cannot both be true.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: siss52 
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 2:58 PM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?



  Hi Scott,

  As a braille reader I suggest you just submit one file, RTF.  If Braille 
users want anything changed from the way Bookshare translates the braille we 
can change it in our personal files.  After all, if we download a book to read, 
we are going to read it, so let us worry about these little nitpicking things.  
As you have seen, different users have different opinions anyway, and it is 
impossible to please some of us.  (Ouch!  Those bricks hurt!  <grin>

  Sue S.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott Blanks 
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:25 PM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?


  What steps would I have to take to submit a properly formatted braille book 
to Bookshare? In other words, if I leave the rtf copy the way it is and submit 
the book for approval, how then do I go about also submitting a proper Braille 
file? I have Duxbury, so would running the rtf file through that do the trick? 
If not, then what do you suggest? 

  Scott


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Pratik patel 
    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:40 PM
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?


    Hello all,

    Let's not forget that Bookshare's population is not limited to Blind and 
partially blind individuals and not all individuals use braille.  It's quite 
understandable that, as perfectionists, we want to ensure that braille users 
can easily consume the products that we produce.  However as the em dash 
character is not reproduced properly in braille, that does not mean that we 
should go and change print characteristics just to suit the needs of braille 
users.  Automated braille translation produces many eccentricities; and, if we 
chose to tailor our print output just so that braille will be produced 
properly, many other users will lose out because of that decision.  As 
bookshare volunteers we cannot distinguish such needs.  If you wish to  ensure 
that braille output is preserved and proper braille is presented to the user, 
you certainly have the option of submitting a properly-formatted braille copy 
to bookshare.

    In other words, we all have to realize-both as users and volunteers-that 
bookshare's braille is not perfect.  It will get there but not if we keep on 
making changes that do not preserve textual integrity.  


    Pratik


    Pratik Patel
    Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
    The City University of New York
    pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
    -----Original Message-----
    From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
    Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:12 PM
    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

    That's what I have said in a message coming to a computer near you very
    soon. <grin>

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
    To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:01 PM
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?


    > Actually, if I'm not mistaken, when you do a global replace of an m dash
    > with a double dash, you aren't affecting the "properly hyphenated words"
    > at all. If a word already has a single dash in it, removing m dashes
    > should have no affect on the single dashes which are already in place.
    >
    > Scott
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Julie Morales" <mercy421@xxxxxxxxx>
    > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    > Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:45 PM
    > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
    >
    >
    >> Hi, Evan. The only problem with a global replace like that is what
    >> happens
    >> to properly-hyphenated words. When you replace a single dash with a
    >> double
    >> dash, that's going to change all of those words, too, and you don't want
    >> that. Take care.
    >> Julie Morales
    >> Email:
    >> mercy421@xxxxxxxxxxx
    >> Windows/MSN Messenger only (no email): mercy0421@xxxxxxxxxxx
    >> Skype: mercy0421
    >> ----- Original Message -----
    >> From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    >> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:35 PM
    >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
    >>
    >>
    >> I don't know what the Braille translator does with them.  As I recall,
    >> it
    >> either doesn't display them properly, or it only puts in one dash instead
    >> of
    >> two, which is what you should have in the Braille file.  I do know that
    >> in
    >> books I scan and read as rtf files, they are not properly displayed on my
    >> Pac Mate.  I generally convert them to double dashes with a quick search
    >> and
    >> replace all in Word before sending them up to Bookshare.
    >>
    >> I'm not changing that.  I don't see why Braille readers should have to
    >> suffer through crummy-looking text because someday some future software
    >> upgrade just might fix the problem - assuming there is one.
    >>
    >>
    >> ----- Original Message -----
    >> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
    >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    >> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:31 AM
    >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
    >>
    >>
    >>> I'm curious though, which comes out better in braille: m dash, or double
    >>> dash? Does it matter? I seem to specifically remember several people on
    >>> this list encouraging the conversion of m dashes to double dashes for
    >>> the
    >>> benefit of braille readers.
    >>>
    >>> Can anybody comment?
    >>>
    >>> Scott
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>> From: "Pratik patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
    >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    >>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:39 AM
    >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Cindy,
    >>>>
    >>>> Please stick with the M-dash character when you enter it.  The
    >>>> automated
    >>>> tools may not support the proper conversion, but, we have to make sure
    >>>> that
    >>>> future versions of those tools do support such conversions.  The
    >>>> em-dash
    >>>> character is a slightly shorter character than the double dash (--).  I
    >>>> know
    >>>> we have been working with the formatting to satisfy the stripper
    >>>> requirement; but we should try to take a conservative approach when
    >>>> editting
    >>>> the original text especially when it comes to formatting.  In some
    >>>> cases,
    >>>> we
    >>>> might have to move words around or make slight font changes but we
    >>>> should
    >>>> avoid making other changes.
    >>>>
    >>>> Pratik
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Pratik Patel
    >>>> Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
    >>>> The City University of New York
    >>>> pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
    >>>>
    >>>> -----Original Message-----
    >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cindy
    >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:55 AM
    >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
    >>>>
    >>>> Is Lissi right in what she says about two dashes
    >>>> instead of an em dash being easier to read in braile?
    >>>> What about with Daisy? What should I be doing, em dash
    >>>> or double dash?
    >>>>
    >>>> Cindy
    >>>>
    >>>> --- Estelnalissi <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Dear Jake,
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Your directions worked perfectly! I'm levitating! We
    >>>>> all know I'm not the
    >>>>> fastest barge on the canal when it comes to
    >>>>> computers, but your instructions
    >>>>> put those m dashes exactly where I needed them.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The M dash will be especially easy to remember
    >>>>> because it's insert 4 as you
    >>>>> said for jaws, and then tapping e 4 times to reach m
    >>>>> dash and enter not even
    >>>>> having to go to OK!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Also exciting is the fact I saw a slew of items
    >>>>> listed in the insert 4
    >>>>> dialogue box which may turn out to be useful!!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The book I'm working on is an Irish memoir. Instead
    >>>>> of using quotes or
    >>>>> apostrophes, there's a dash or m dash before all
    >>>>> quotes and no mark to show
    >>>>> the end of the quote. It's plain in print because
    >>>>> quotes are inserted
    >>>>> farther than the narrative, but I think braille
    >>>>> readers will quickly catch
    >>>>> the pattern.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> While blissfully making my corrections with the new
    >>>>> command, I noticed that
    >>>>> the scanner read these unique indications of quotes
    >>>>> as dash about half of
    >>>>> the time and M dash the other half with some minus
    >>>>> signs thrown in for
    >>>>> variety. The mixture was random so I made a command
    >>>>> decision to use the
    >>>>> simpler dash to indicate quotes. I'm on page 27 now
    >>>>> and all quotes are
    >>>>> uniformly indicated with a single dash, easier for
    >>>>> me and the reader.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> By the way, when this book is approved, I'm going to
    >>>>> mention that while
    >>>>> anyone interested in quirky humor, Irish culture and
    >>>>> recalling life from
    >>>>> 1959 through 1960 something will like this book, but
    >>>>> the POV, and the
    >>>>> father, a kind of hero to the author will really
    >>>>> appeal to the gritty guys
    >>>>> among the members. I'm entranced, but regularly
    >>>>> amused in spite of myself
    >>>>> and grossed out, too.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Always with love,
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Lissi
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Thanks for helping me to enjoy another break
    >>>>> through!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>>>> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
    >>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:52 PM
    >>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make
    >>>>> it?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> > Hi Lissi,
    >>>>> >    There are two easy ways to insert an em-dash
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > If you're using Microsoft Word, you can press
    >>>>> CTRL+ALT+the minus sign on
    >>>>> > the numpad.
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > If you're using JAWS, you can press INSERT+4 (the
    >>>>> 4 on the regular
    >>>>> > keyboard) and you'll get a list of symbols. Press
    >>>>> the letter e a few times
    >>>>> > and you'll find em dash, then press enter.
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > That's all there is to it.
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > Jake
    >>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
    >>>>> > From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    >>>>> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    >>>>> > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:16 PM
    >>>>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] M dash, how to make it?
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> >> Dear Volunteer Friends,
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> There was a discussion here about making that
    >>>>> long dash called m dash by
    >>>>> >> Jaws using microsoft word while validating an RTF
    >>>>> file. How to make it
    >>>>> >> with other programs might have been mentioned,
    >>>>> too.
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> What I mostly remember is that it was suggested
    >>>>> that just using 2 dashes
    >>>>> >> comes out better for the braille reader in
    >>>>> Bookshare's BRF file of a
    >>>>> >> book. So, I decided that when I had a choice, I'd
    >>>>> use 2 dashes.
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> However, the book I'm validating is already
    >>>>> packed with m dashes, so if I
    >>>>> >> fix one, I thought it should match them.
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> How do I make an m dash? Occasionally jaws calls
    >>>>> an m dash a minus, and I
    >>>>> >> want to replace the minus signs with m dashes. If
    >>>>> anyone can point me to
    >>>>> >> the answer or remind me how to do this, I'd
    >>>>> appreciate it and save the
    >>>>> >> information in my Bookshare Tips file.
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> While I wait to hear about this, I'll mark the
    >>>>> spot and go on. I'm only
    >>>>> >> on page 12, but this book really motivates me to
    >>>>> make good progress.
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> Hope all of your current endeavors are going
    >>>>> swimmingly. - Smile
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> Always with love,
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> Lissi
    >>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
    >>>>> to
    >>>>> >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    >>>>> >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
    >>>>> subject line.  To get a list
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    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >>
    >>>>> >> --
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