[bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
- From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 18:46:26 -0700
I think I understand what you are saying. But I have two problems with it.
First, I, and others here, are scanning and validating books now, for people to
read now as well as in the future. As I have said, I can certainly produce a
document with the m dashes intact by doing nothing, as my OB seems to recognize
them pretty well. However, it rankles that I should send up something to
Bookshare that will be read by other Braille readers that looks shoddy when it
could look the way it should with a simple replacement, especially since the
only reason I have heard for not doing it is that it might somehow cause some
problem for some possible future upgrade. But that doesn't make sense to me,
see below.
Secondly, what is so complicated about replacing a double dash in an rtf file
with this possible dot 3 dots 3-6 dot 3 combination, or any other dot
configuration for that matter, as well as replacing the m dash with this dot
combination if this new Braille translation standard should ever come to
fruition. There are many examples in Braille of multiple sets of characters
being translated into the same dot combination. Examples include the words by
and was, the double letters cc and the con sign, d d and dis, the com sign and
the hyphen. I don't propose that this is an exhaustive list, those are just
the ones I thought up off the top of my head. I think that the point is made
that the Braille translator can translate different character sets into the
same dot configuration. So if this translation Nirvana ever comes about, then
the Braille translator can translate a double dash into this new dot
configuration just as easily as it can an m dash. Are all the past submissions
in Bookshare's catalogue going to be translated into this new standard, or only
books submitted after this standard is incorporated into the Braille
translation software? If so, then it should still be able to translate double
dashes into any desired dot configuration as well as the m dash character. If
not, then they are not going to be retranslated, so it is pointless to not try
to make them the best quality as possible now. Meanwhile, in the present,
Braille readers get what should appear in the book they want to read now.
Also, I haven't heard any reason why other readers should have a problem with
it. Does this affect Daisy navigation somehow? As for people reading a
screen: They will see a slightly longer m dash than normal. If what Cindy
says is true, then the hyphen and the m dash can be hard to tell apart even
with good sight, so I doubt that a double hyphen would look very much out of
place, just slightly longer than an m dash.
So I respectfully disagree with your position.
----- Original Message -----
From: Pratik patel
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:26 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
Evan,
I'm sorry if I'm miscommunicating. as it stands, the file that you submit
and/or validate is the same file that is used to generate DAISY and braille by
Bookshare. So what you submit is how it will appear to both types of users,
those who use DAISY and those who use Braille. Your changes, whether they
appear in your submission or in your final, validated product, will be
reflected in both Braille and DAISY. What I am suggesting is that you refrain
from making changes in one product that are especially designed to consider
only one format, (braille, in this case). The goal is to ensure that we
preserve the original as much as possible. Think of it this way:
Right now, we all know and expect Grade 2 braille files from Bookshare.
Imagine a few years down the road the Braille Authority of North America (BANA)
decides to finish playing politics and finally approves a standard for braille
translation that everyone agrees is a good standard. Now bookshare has to
change its system to ensure that its material complies with this lovely
standard. Imagine further that this new standard has a provision for
representing the em dash in a different way-oh, let's just say the word, a
space dot 6, followed by dots 3-6, follow by dot 3, followed by a space, that
followed by a word. Now, bookshare must make sure that all its braille has the
em dash character represented in this new way. If we, as volunteers, submitted
files that have two dashes in them in stead of having the em dash character
this process of conversion becomes much more complicated. When we talk about
substituting double dashes for an em dash what we are doing is actually
changing content for the sake of appearance. An em dash is a part of the
sentence unlike italics and old, which are styles used to make the appearance
of that sentence different.
Scott, you will find that programs such as Duxbury introduce their own
artifacts into braille translation. For many users, who are used to reading
the almost perfect translations provided by the NLS, Duxbury output isn't
sufficient either. In fact, Duxbury output may not be much different at all
than what is provided by bookshare. if you are a braille reader and wish to do
some braille editting,i would suggest that you take the duxbury file and go
through it. It is, unfortunately, a long and tedious process. I applaud the
saints who choose to do this.
Regards,
Pratik
Pratik Patel
Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
The City University of New York
pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:54 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
Sorry, but I don't see your point.
You are a director of a company, and one of your employees comes to you and
says: "Yah, I know this document doesn't look as good as it could, and I could
make it look better, but we might get a software upgrade in the future that
makes the document as it looks now look much better than it does now. So
rather than making it look as good as I can now, I will refrain from doing that
so that someday it might look better in the future." Would you buy that?
----- Original Message -----
From: Pratik patel
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:40 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
Hello all,
Let's not forget that Bookshare's population is not limited to Blind and
partially blind individuals and not all individuals use braille. It's quite
understandable that, as perfectionists, we want to ensure that braille users
can easily consume the products that we produce. However as the em dash
character is not reproduced properly in braille, that does not mean that we
should go and change print characteristics just to suit the needs of braille
users. Automated braille translation produces many eccentricities; and, if we
chose to tailor our print output just so that braille will be produced
properly, many other users will lose out because of that decision. As
bookshare volunteers we cannot distinguish such needs. If you wish to ensure
that braille output is preserved and proper braille is presented to the user,
you certainly have the option of submitting a properly-formatted braille copy
to bookshare.
In other words, we all have to realize-both as users and volunteers-that
bookshare's braille is not perfect. It will get there but not if we keep on
making changes that do not preserve textual integrity.
Pratik
Pratik Patel
Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
The City University of New York
pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:12 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
That's what I have said in a message coming to a computer near you very
soon. <grin>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
> Actually, if I'm not mistaken, when you do a global replace of an m dash
> with a double dash, you aren't affecting the "properly hyphenated words"
> at all. If a word already has a single dash in it, removing m dashes
> should have no affect on the single dashes which are already in place.
>
> Scott
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie Morales" <mercy421@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:45 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>
>
>> Hi, Evan. The only problem with a global replace like that is what
>> happens
>> to properly-hyphenated words. When you replace a single dash with a
>> double
>> dash, that's going to change all of those words, too, and you don't want
>> that. Take care.
>> Julie Morales
>> Email:
>> mercy421@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> Windows/MSN Messenger only (no email): mercy0421@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> Skype: mercy0421
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:35 PM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>
>>
>> I don't know what the Braille translator does with them. As I recall,
>> it
>> either doesn't display them properly, or it only puts in one dash instead
>> of
>> two, which is what you should have in the Braille file. I do know that
>> in
>> books I scan and read as rtf files, they are not properly displayed on my
>> Pac Mate. I generally convert them to double dashes with a quick search
>> and
>> replace all in Word before sending them up to Bookshare.
>>
>> I'm not changing that. I don't see why Braille readers should have to
>> suffer through crummy-looking text because someday some future software
>> upgrade just might fix the problem - assuming there is one.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:31 AM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>
>>
>>> I'm curious though, which comes out better in braille: m dash, or double
>>> dash? Does it matter? I seem to specifically remember several people on
>>> this list encouraging the conversion of m dashes to double dashes for
>>> the
>>> benefit of braille readers.
>>>
>>> Can anybody comment?
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pratik patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:39 AM
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cindy,
>>>>
>>>> Please stick with the M-dash character when you enter it. The
>>>> automated
>>>> tools may not support the proper conversion, but, we have to make sure
>>>> that
>>>> future versions of those tools do support such conversions. The
>>>> em-dash
>>>> character is a slightly shorter character than the double dash (--). I
>>>> know
>>>> we have been working with the formatting to satisfy the stripper
>>>> requirement; but we should try to take a conservative approach when
>>>> editting
>>>> the original text especially when it comes to formatting. In some
>>>> cases,
>>>> we
>>>> might have to move words around or make slight font changes but we
>>>> should
>>>> avoid making other changes.
>>>>
>>>> Pratik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pratik Patel
>>>> Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
>>>> The City University of New York
>>>> pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:55 AM
>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>
>>>> Is Lissi right in what she says about two dashes
>>>> instead of an em dash being easier to read in braile?
>>>> What about with Daisy? What should I be doing, em dash
>>>> or double dash?
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> --- Estelnalissi <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Jake,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your directions worked perfectly! I'm levitating! We
>>>>> all know I'm not the
>>>>> fastest barge on the canal when it comes to
>>>>> computers, but your instructions
>>>>> put those m dashes exactly where I needed them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The M dash will be especially easy to remember
>>>>> because it's insert 4 as you
>>>>> said for jaws, and then tapping e 4 times to reach m
>>>>> dash and enter not even
>>>>> having to go to OK!
>>>>>
>>>>> Also exciting is the fact I saw a slew of items
>>>>> listed in the insert 4
>>>>> dialogue box which may turn out to be useful!!
>>>>>
>>>>> The book I'm working on is an Irish memoir. Instead
>>>>> of using quotes or
>>>>> apostrophes, there's a dash or m dash before all
>>>>> quotes and no mark to show
>>>>> the end of the quote. It's plain in print because
>>>>> quotes are inserted
>>>>> farther than the narrative, but I think braille
>>>>> readers will quickly catch
>>>>> the pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> While blissfully making my corrections with the new
>>>>> command, I noticed that
>>>>> the scanner read these unique indications of quotes
>>>>> as dash about half of
>>>>> the time and M dash the other half with some minus
>>>>> signs thrown in for
>>>>> variety. The mixture was random so I made a command
>>>>> decision to use the
>>>>> simpler dash to indicate quotes. I'm on page 27 now
>>>>> and all quotes are
>>>>> uniformly indicated with a single dash, easier for
>>>>> me and the reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, when this book is approved, I'm going to
>>>>> mention that while
>>>>> anyone interested in quirky humor, Irish culture and
>>>>> recalling life from
>>>>> 1959 through 1960 something will like this book, but
>>>>> the POV, and the
>>>>> father, a kind of hero to the author will really
>>>>> appeal to the gritty guys
>>>>> among the members. I'm entranced, but regularly
>>>>> amused in spite of myself
>>>>> and grossed out, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Always with love,
>>>>>
>>>>> Lissi
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for helping me to enjoy another break
>>>>> through!
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make
>>>>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hi Lissi,
>>>>> > There are two easy ways to insert an em-dash
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If you're using Microsoft Word, you can press
>>>>> CTRL+ALT+the minus sign on
>>>>> > the numpad.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If you're using JAWS, you can press INSERT+4 (the
>>>>> 4 on the regular
>>>>> > keyboard) and you'll get a list of symbols. Press
>>>>> the letter e a few times
>>>>> > and you'll find em dash, then press enter.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That's all there is to it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jake
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:16 PM
>>>>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] M dash, how to make it?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Dear Volunteer Friends,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> There was a discussion here about making that
>>>>> long dash called m dash by
>>>>> >> Jaws using microsoft word while validating an RTF
>>>>> file. How to make it
>>>>> >> with other programs might have been mentioned,
>>>>> too.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> What I mostly remember is that it was suggested
>>>>> that just using 2 dashes
>>>>> >> comes out better for the braille reader in
>>>>> Bookshare's BRF file of a
>>>>> >> book. So, I decided that when I had a choice, I'd
>>>>> use 2 dashes.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> However, the book I'm validating is already
>>>>> packed with m dashes, so if I
>>>>> >> fix one, I thought it should match them.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> How do I make an m dash? Occasionally jaws calls
>>>>> an m dash a minus, and I
>>>>> >> want to replace the minus signs with m dashes. If
>>>>> anyone can point me to
>>>>> >> the answer or remind me how to do this, I'd
>>>>> appreciate it and save the
>>>>> >> information in my Bookshare Tips file.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> While I wait to hear about this, I'll mark the
>>>>> spot and go on. I'm only
>>>>> >> on page 12, but this book really motivates me to
>>>>> make good progress.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Hope all of your current endeavors are going
>>>>> swimmingly. - Smile
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Always with love,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Lissi
>>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
>>>>> subject line. To get a list
>>>>> >> of available commands, put the word 'help' by
>>>>> itself in the subject line.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>> >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/354 -
>>>>> Release Date: 6/1/2006
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>> --
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>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/355 - Release Date: 6/2/2006
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>
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