[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Just taking issue with one point here, its not won't update its can't afford to update. If someone has jaws three or We 1 as you suggest they not only have to pay the cost to upgrade the screenreader but chances are it won't work on their PC so theyll have to upgrade that too. Since a huge proportion of VIPs are unemployed or in low paid jobs where is the money supposed to come from?

But I'm not sure thats the real issue. I use the web quite a lot with WE 5 and the most common problems that I come across with accessability are links which don't have proper labels. I don't think theres any screenreader that can handle this and as I said this is for me the most common example of inaccessability.
Yusuf
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:52 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.



Hi Tink,

I don't think anyone will get accessibility right, because too many people
attach blaim to companies, just because the people who test the web sites
can't access them. Again, you have to take account of old versions. If
someone has Version 3 of JAWS, of Version 1 of Window-Eyes, or something
like that, and they say "the site isn't accessible", how do you respond?
Not you personally I mean, but the answer is that one must have the most
up-to-date tools to access the majority of web sites, and a lot of people
who own old screen readers simply won't update, and they will continue
crying inaccessibility. So the guidelines, W3C, or whatever, should always
recommend that the latest tools are used, but they don't tend to, do they?
Until they do, we will never get accessibility right. Anyway, why IE 7?
Firefox is a lot faster, and will soon work with Window-Eyes, just thought
I'd get that one in <Big Smile>.


Just my two penyworth.

All the best
--
Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Tink Watson
Sent: 01 September 2005 10:18
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.


Steve,

   Nothing like a good discussion first thing in the morning. *Smile.

This is a tricky one to decide. I think what you're suggesting is that a
web site, no matter how well it is designed, is only accessible if an
external product is capable of reading it?


   The difficulty here lies with the question of whose responsibility it
should be to ensure that there isn't a discrepancy between the accessible
design of a web site and the degree of success a screen reader has in
interacting with it.

   The problem is that to a large degree the responsibility lies with each
party and, just to make life interesting, with the browser manefacturers
also.

There are standards and guidelines laid down by the Internet's governing
body, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). If followed by a web designer, a
web site should be accessible to everyone, assuming they have the right
technology.


In turn, the browsers must also follow the same guidelines and standards
when they read the code of a web page and display it onscreen. This is
starting to happen and once Internet Explorer 7 is released, the browsers on
the whole will be doing a good job of interpreting the code pages are
written in.


Last you come to screen readers, which must also interpret the code web
pages are written in correctly, but which also rely on the interpretation
previously carried out by the browser. It can begin to look like a bit of a
muddle.


   What I'm trying to get at is that if each of the three parties involved
in the process all followed these guidelines and standards, then any
glitches would be removed and you wouldn't end up with the situation you
suggested where one screen reader may not be able to deal with something
that another can.

The trick is to follow the guidelines and standards and in my working
experience I've yet to find an example where a site designed following said
guidelines etc. hasn't been accessible to people using any of the common
screen reading technologies, despite the different approaches taken by each
cog in the wheel. If you know of any examples though, I'd be interested to
know. All the feedback and real world experiences we can hear about, the
better Nomensa, our company, will be at getting this web development malarky
right. *Grin.


Tink.
   It's a long haul and it will take time, the screen reader vendors being
the most reluctant to follow the lead taken by the browser vendors, and
increasingly web designers.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:07 PM Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.


Hi Tink,

I think I am going to disagree with you, accessibility is subjective. If
you try a web site with one screen reader, and it isn't accessible, does
that make it inaccessible? Only for that person using that screen reader.
If you then find another screen reader renders it perfectly accessible to
that same user, after training, for example, does that suddenly make that
web site accessible? Accessibility is as subjective as usability in my
view.


All the best
--
Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of
Tink Watson
Sent: 31 August 2005 20:11
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

DJ,

Good question. I'll measure each site against the Web Content
Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C, but will also take into account how
each site feels to use in practical terms.


I should stress that I won't be writing the piece for In Touch, but
am just conducting some investigations for one of their team for a piece
ther hoping to do later this Autumn. I'll recommend that care is taken to
keep everything in perspective, but I know they are an experienced team.
The
In Touch team member I'm working for is also visually impaired, so again
there is good knowledge there.

I'm going to disagree with the suggestion that accessibility is
subjective though. *Smile.

Ensuring that everyone has access to something is objective, the
subjective part is it's usability.

It's a question of where the responsibility lies. I believe that it
is the responsibility of the site owner to ensure that it is as accessible
and usable as possible. It is the responsibility of the user to ensure
they
have the right skills and technology to use it.


I don't want to wade into discussions about the availability and
cost of assisstive technology, that's not what I'm meaning. I'm thinking
more along the lines of motorways only being accessible if you have a car
and you are licenced to drive it.

Accessibility is about making sure someone, anyone, can access
information. Usability is about how easy that information is to access and
that's where it becomes truly subjective. It's one of the reasons why
there
is so little in the way of guidelines for usability, although the WCAG
metnioned above do sway a little in that direction as you near the
Priority
3 level checkpoints.


The end goal of what I'm doing now, is to produce some information
about sites that have special offers online, but not available over the
phone or in person, Sites that are accessible and easy to use, Companies
that make special offers or discounts to people with disabilities, in fact
anything that focuses on the whole area of disability, web sites, iscounts
and so forth.


Tink.
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of
Dj Paddy
Sent: 31 August 2005 15:07
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Hi Tink.

How will you determine what is a, "Accessible", web site?

I am not wanting to be argumentative here.  smiles

Will you refer to W3C?

I hope that in any conclusion and/or opening it is stressed that,
"Accessible", is still a subjective term. And that lack of knowledge, (I
don't personally believe training is always the answer , although this is
something that can help but I don't believe it's called for as much as
it's
suggested) Bottom line in tech support mainstream or otherwise the end
user
is allot more at fault than the site in this case. Often due to them not
having the skills for whatever reason to use their adaptive/mainstream and
general operating system to it' sfull capacity to gain access.


OK, now I've made those big sweeping remarks I should include a website or
few I suppose?


Although I don't think there's many sites that are inaccessible in their
entirety.

N'ways why not include

www.thinkgeek.com

www.paypal.co.uk

www.google.com (.co.uk)

My hosting company

www.dhosting.co.uk

The guys even got keyboard shortcuts on there.

www.ebay.co.uk

Who actually have buttons you can hit on to have standard web forms on
instead of Java. But who have no audio authentication system in place but
paypal that they push and partner with do?


Anyways it's a place I spent a small fortune on over the past few weeks
and
was quite miffed that I had to get a mate to change my email address for
me
because of the graphical auth system.

I could go on....

You may wish to look at the links on Tom's site whitestick.co.uk and even
the favourites page on jfwlite as well.

Dj Paddy
"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of
Java
that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the shaking
becomes
a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
-- Popular Usenet Sig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Vi Gen Access"
<vi-genaccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:00 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Really good, accessible web sites.


Good afternoon,

   Continuing with my research on behalf of Radio 4's In Touch
program, I'm hoping you can help with recommendations for really good
accessible web sites.

   I know that a perfectly accessible and usable web site is still
something of a rarity, but certainly in my own experience, there are
shops

online where I can carry out my shopping without too much grief.

   If anyone can recommend a web site from the following categories
that is easy to use, that would be great:

Travel
CD's etc
Food Supermarkets
Finance,Insurance
Entertainment


The idea is to praise those companies who appear to be making an effort

or who have taken steps in the right direction.

   Please reply off list to tink@xxxxxxxxxx or on list if you feel
others would benefit from sharing your recommendations.

Thanks,
Tink.



--
http://www.tink.co.uk/
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