[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Kevin,

I think you're absolutely right when you say that sites are not always as inaccessible as people believe them to be, but that leads to the supposition that it isn't the accessibility of the web site that is subjective, but the degree of competence displayed by the user that is.

Tink.
----- Original Message ----- From: "kevin and emma" <kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:12 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.



hi steve, agreed totally! i get fed up with people screaming about
inaccessible websites, and blaming the company whose site it is. has it not
ever occurred to someone, "hang on, maybe i'm the problem here?" not only do
different screen readers perform differently with the same sites, but
different versions of the same SR do. it's just too easy to blame someone
else for a website you struggle with instead of admitting that maybe your
not using your access technology to the best of it's ability. and no i'm not
saying all websites are accessible, i just don't think there's as many
*inaccessible* sites as people seem to claim. buyt this is all subjective
and down to personal opinion, which is why i don't think the whole website
accessibility thing will ever be nailed down.
Kevin - co-owner/moderator of the blind gamers discussion list
contact me via email/msn:
kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:07 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.



Hi Tink,

I think I am going to disagree with you, accessibility is subjective. If
you try a web site with one screen reader, and it isn't accessible, does
that make it inaccessible? Only for that person using that screen reader.
If you then find another screen reader renders it perfectly accessible to
that same user, after training, for example, does that suddenly make that
web site accessible? Accessibility is as subjective as usability in my
view.


All the best
--
Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of
Tink Watson
Sent: 31 August 2005 20:11
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

DJ,

Good question. I'll measure each site against the Web Content
Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C, but will also take into account how
each site feels to use in practical terms.


I should stress that I won't be writing the piece for In Touch, but
am just conducting some investigations for one of their team for a piece
ther hoping to do later this Autumn. I'll recommend that care is taken to
keep everything in perspective, but I know they are an experienced team.
The
In Touch team member I'm working for is also visually impaired, so again
there is good knowledge there.

I'm going to disagree with the suggestion that accessibility is
subjective though. *Smile.

Ensuring that everyone has access to something is objective, the
subjective part is it's usability.

It's a question of where the responsibility lies. I believe that it
is the responsibility of the site owner to ensure that it is as accessible
and usable as possible. It is the responsibility of the user to ensure
they
have the right skills and technology to use it.

I don't want to wade into discussions about the availability and
cost of assisstive technology, that's not what I'm meaning. I'm thinking
more along the lines of motorways only being accessible if you have a car
and you are licenced to drive it.

Accessibility is about making sure someone, anyone, can access
information. Usability is about how easy that information is to access and
that's where it becomes truly subjective. It's one of the reasons why
there
is so little in the way of guidelines for usability, although the WCAG
metnioned above do sway a little in that direction as you near the
Priority
3 level checkpoints.

The end goal of what I'm doing now, is to produce some information
about sites that have special offers online, but not available over the
phone or in person, Sites that are accessible and easy to use, Companies
that make special offers or discounts to people with disabilities, in fact
anything that focuses on the whole area of disability, web sites, iscounts
and so forth.


Tink.
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of
Dj Paddy
Sent: 31 August 2005 15:07
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Hi Tink.

How will you determine what is a, "Accessible", web site?

I am not wanting to be argumentative here.  smiles

Will you refer to W3C?

I hope that in any conclusion and/or opening it is stressed that,
"Accessible", is still a subjective term.  And that lack of knowledge, (I
don't personally believe training is always the answer , although this is
something that can help but I don't believe it's called for as much as
it's
suggested) Bottom line in tech support mainstream or otherwise the end
user
is allot more at fault than the site in this case. Often due to them not
having the skills for whatever reason to use their adaptive/mainstream and
general operating system to it' sfull capacity to gain access.


OK, now I've made those big sweeping remarks I should include a website or
few I suppose?


Although I don't think there's many sites that are inaccessible in their
entirety.

N'ways why not include

www.thinkgeek.com

www.paypal.co.uk

www.google.com (.co.uk)

My hosting company

www.dhosting.co.uk

The guys even got keyboard shortcuts on there.

www.ebay.co.uk

Who actually have buttons you can hit on to have standard web forms on
instead of Java. But who have no audio authentication system in place but
paypal that they push and partner with do?


Anyways it's a place I spent a small fortune on over the past few weeks
and
was quite miffed that I had to get a mate to change my email address for
me
because of the graphical auth system.

I could go on....

You may wish to look at the links on Tom's site whitestick.co.uk and even
the favourites page on jfwlite as well.

Dj Paddy
"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of
Java
that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the shaking
becomes
a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
-- Popular Usenet Sig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Vi Gen Access"
<vi-genaccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:00 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Really good, accessible web sites.


> Good afternoon, > > Continuing with my research on behalf of Radio 4's In Touch > program, I'm hoping you can help with recommendations for really good > accessible web sites. > > I know that a perfectly accessible and usable web site is still > something of a rarity, but certainly in my own experience, there are > shops

> online where I can carry out my shopping without too much grief.
>
>    If anyone can recommend a web site from the following categories
> that is easy to use, that would be great:
>
> Travel
> CD's etc
> Food Supermarkets
> Finance,Insurance
> Entertainment
>
>
>    The idea is to praise those companies who appear to be making an
> effort

> or who have taken steps in the right direction.
>
>    Please reply off list to tink@xxxxxxxxxx or on list if you feel
> others would benefit from sharing your recommendations.
>
> Thanks,
> Tink.
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.tink.co.uk/
> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> ** and in the Subject line type
> ** unsubscribe
> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> ** immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> ** or send a message, to
> ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1205 (20050830) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>

** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq


** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq



** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq




** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq



** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq

Other related posts: