[access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Hi Yusuf,

But if you keep up to date in the first place, it doesn't cost so much in
one go.

But I agree with you about the unlabeled links.  One way sometimes to find
out, is to look at the IE status bar, or the actual URL of the address,
rather than just rely on what the screen reader says, but that also is not
100 percent.  The other way is to just click the darned link, and find out
where it goes, then make a note of it.  I do this sometimes.  Not ideal, but
it all helps.

All the best
--
Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938, 
Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk  

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
yusuf
Sent: 01 September 2005 12:38
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.

Just taking issue with one point here, its not won't update its can't afford
to update. If someone has jaws three or We 1 as you suggest they not only
have to pay the cost to upgrade the screenreader but chances are it won't
work on their PC so theyll have to upgrade that too. Since a huge proportion
of VIPs are unemployed or in low paid jobs where is the money supposed to
come from?

But I'm not sure thats the real issue. I use the web quite a lot with WE 5
and the most common problems that I come across with accessability are links
which don't have proper labels. I don't think theres any screenreader that
can handle this and as I said this is for me the most common example of
inaccessability.
Yusuf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:52 AM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.


> Hi Tink,
>
> I don't think anyone will get accessibility right, because too many 
> people attach blaim to companies, just because the people who test the 
> web sites can't access them.  Again, you have to take account of old 
> versions.  If someone has Version 3 of JAWS, of Version 1 of 
> Window-Eyes, or something like that, and they say "the site isn't
accessible", how do you respond?
> Not you personally I mean, but the answer is that one must have the 
> most up-to-date tools to access the majority of web sites, and a lot 
> of people who own old screen readers simply won't update, and they 
> will continue crying inaccessibility.  So the guidelines, W3C, or 
> whatever, should always recommend that the latest tools are used, but 
> they don't tend to, do they?
> Until they do, we will never get accessibility right.  Anyway, why IE 7?
> Firefox is a lot faster, and will soon work with Window-Eyes, just 
> thought I'd get that one in <Big Smile>.
>
> Just my two penyworth.
>
> All the best
> --
> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of Tink Watson
> Sent: 01 September 2005 10:18
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
> Steve,
>
>    Nothing like a good discussion first thing in the morning. *Smile.
>
>    This is a tricky one to decide. I think what you're suggesting is 
> that a web site, no matter how well it is designed, is only accessible 
> if an external product is capable of reading it?
>
>    The difficulty here lies with the question of whose responsibility 
> it should be to ensure that there isn't a discrepancy between the 
> accessible design of a web site and the degree of success a screen 
> reader has in interacting with it.
>
>    The problem is that to a large degree the responsibility lies with 
> each party and, just to make life interesting, with the browser 
> manefacturers also.
>
>    There are standards and guidelines laid down by the Internet's 
> governing body, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). If followed by a 
> web designer, a web site should be accessible to everyone, assuming 
> they have the right technology.
>
>    In turn, the browsers must also follow the same guidelines and 
> standards when they read the code of a web page and display it 
> onscreen. This is starting to happen and once Internet Explorer 7 is 
> released, the browsers on the whole will be doing a good job of 
> interpreting the code pages are written in.
>
>    Last you come to screen readers, which must also interpret the code 
> web pages are written in correctly, but which also rely on the 
> interpretation previously carried out by the browser. It can begin to 
> look like a bit of a muddle.
>
>    What I'm trying to get at is that if each of the three parties 
> involved in the process all followed these guidelines and standards, 
> then any glitches would be removed and you wouldn't end up with the 
> situation you suggested where one screen reader may not be able to 
> deal with something that another can.
>
>    The trick is to follow the guidelines and standards and in my 
> working experience I've yet to find an example where a site designed 
> following said guidelines etc. hasn't been accessible to people using 
> any of the common screen reading technologies, despite the different 
> approaches taken by each cog in the wheel. If you know of any examples 
> though, I'd be interested to know. All the feedback and real world 
> experiences we can hear about, the better Nomensa, our company, will 
> be at getting this web development malarky right. *Grin.
>
> Tink.
>    It's a long haul and it will take time, the screen reader vendors 
> being the most reluctant to follow the lead taken by the browser 
> vendors, and increasingly web designers.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:07 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
>
>> Hi Tink,
>>
>> I think I am going to disagree with you, accessibility is subjective.  
>> If you try a web site with one screen reader, and it isn't 
>> accessible, does that make it inaccessible?  Only for that person 
>> using that screen reader.
>> If you then find another screen reader renders it perfectly 
>> accessible to that same user, after training, for example, does that 
>> suddenly make that web site accessible?  Accessibility is as 
>> subjective as usability in my view.
>>
>> All the best
>> --
>> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
>> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
>> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
>> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>> Behalf Of Tink Watson
>> Sent: 31 August 2005 20:11
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>>
>> DJ,
>>
>> Good question. I'll measure each site against the Web Content 
>> Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C, but will also take into 
>> account how each site feels to use in practical terms.
>>
>> I should stress that I won't be writing the piece for In Touch, but 
>> am just conducting some investigations for one of their team for a 
>> piece ther hoping to do later this Autumn. I'll recommend that care 
>> is taken to keep everything in perspective, but I know they are an
experienced team.
>> The
>> In Touch team member I'm working for is also visually impaired, so 
>> again there is good knowledge there.
>>
>> I'm going to disagree with the suggestion that accessibility is 
>> subjective though. *Smile.
>>
>> Ensuring that everyone has access to something is objective, the 
>> subjective part is it's usability.
>>
>> It's a question of where the responsibility lies. I believe that it 
>> is the responsibility of the site owner to ensure that it is as 
>> accessible and usable as possible. It is the responsibility of the 
>> user to ensure they have the right skills and technology to use it.
>>
>> I don't want to wade into discussions about the availability and cost 
>> of assisstive technology, that's not what I'm meaning. I'm thinking 
>> more along the lines of motorways only being accessible if you have a 
>> car and you are licenced to drive it.
>>
>> Accessibility is about making sure someone, anyone, can access 
>> information. Usability is about how easy that information is to 
>> access and that's where it becomes truly subjective. It's one of the 
>> reasons why there is so little in the way of guidelines for 
>> usability, although the WCAG metnioned above do sway a little in that 
>> direction as you near the Priority
>> 3 level checkpoints.
>>
>> The end goal of what I'm doing now, is to produce some information 
>> about sites that have special offers online, but not available over 
>> the phone or in person, Sites that are accessible and easy to use, 
>> Companies that make special offers or discounts to people with 
>> disabilities, in fact anything that focuses on the whole area of 
>> disability, web sites, iscounts and so forth.
>>
>> Tink.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>> Behalf Of Dj Paddy
>> Sent: 31 August 2005 15:07
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>>
>> Hi Tink.
>>
>> How will you determine what is a, "Accessible", web site?
>>
>> I am not wanting to be argumentative here.  smiles
>>
>> Will you refer to W3C?
>>
>> I hope that in any conclusion and/or opening it is stressed that, 
>> "Accessible", is still a subjective term.  And that lack of 
>> knowledge, (I don't personally believe training is always the answer 
>> , although this is something that can help but I don't believe it's 
>> called for as much as it's
>> suggested)  Bottom line in tech support mainstream or otherwise the 
>> end user is allot more at fault than the site in this case.  Often 
>> due to them not having the skills for whatever reason to use their 
>> adaptive/mainstream and general operating system to it' sfull 
>> capacity to gain access.
>>
>> OK, now I've made those big sweeping remarks I should include a 
>> website or few I suppose?
>>
>> Although I don't think there's many sites that are inaccessible in 
>> their entirety.
>>
>> N'ways why not include
>>
>> www.thinkgeek.com
>>
>> www.paypal.co.uk
>>
>> www.google.com (.co.uk)
>>
>> My hosting company
>>
>> www.dhosting.co.uk
>>
>> The guys even got keyboard shortcuts on there.
>>
>> www.ebay.co.uk
>>
>> Who actually have buttons you can hit on to have standard web forms 
>> on instead of Java.  But who have no audio authentication system in 
>> place but paypal that they push and partner with do?
>>
>> Anyways it's a place I spent a small fortune on over the past few 
>> weeks and was quite miffed that I had to get a mate to change my 
>> email address for me because of the graphical auth system.
>>
>> I could go on....
>>
>> You may wish to look at the links on Tom's site whitestick.co.uk and 
>> even the favourites page on jfwlite as well.
>>
>> Dj Paddy
>> "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans 
>> of Java that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the 
>> shaking becomes a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in 
>> motion."
>> -- Popular Usenet Sig
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Vi Gen Access"
>> <vi-genaccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:00 PM
>> Subject: [access-uk] Really good, accessible web sites.
>>
>>
>>> Good afternoon,
>>>
>>>    Continuing with my research on behalf of Radio 4's In Touch 
>>> program, I'm hoping you can help with recommendations for really 
>>> good accessible web sites.
>>>
>>>    I know that a perfectly accessible and usable web site is still 
>>> something of a rarity, but certainly in my own experience, there are 
>>> shops
>>
>>> online where I can carry out my shopping without too much grief.
>>>
>>>    If anyone can recommend a web site from the following categories 
>>> that is easy to use, that would be great:
>>>
>>> Travel
>>> CD's etc
>>> Food Supermarkets
>>> Finance,Insurance
>>> Entertainment
>>>
>>>
>>>    The idea is to praise those companies who appear to be making an 
>>> effort
>>
>>> or who have taken steps in the right direction.
>>>
>>>    Please reply off list to tink@xxxxxxxxxx or on list if you feel 
>>> others would benefit from sharing your recommendations.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tink.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://www.tink.co.uk/
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>>
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