I'm not saying these companies shouldn't make a profit, I know I would want to if I was at the helm, but the point is there are tried and tested ways of making a profit whilst playing fare, and Freedom Scientific simply don't play fare. Sight And Sound for example, would love to offer customers a payment plan but Freedom Scientific simply will not let them offer that option! That's just unreasonable.
I've been a Jaws user since version 3.2 all those years ago, and so far I've spent way over 2 grand on the product. Now in the days when HJ ran things, every new Jaws upgrade was full of new features, but now Freedom Scientific have it, the new features list seems to shrink more and more.
I don't even object to the pricing of all this stuff, as much as I object to the fact that these companies do not offer a way to pay for it that is affordable to people with low incomes. KNFB reader may very well be worth the money, but will they let me pay for it over a period of 12 months? No they won't. And yet, why not? What would be the problem? they'd still get the same amount of money. The problem is they don't want to wait for it. So as a consequence, I won't be buying it. So there's a customer they've lost, there's nearly a grand they haven't earned. How pointless is that? All for the sake of a simple, easy to manage payment plan scheme.
The GW micro scheme requires relicensing every 30 days, so if I suddenly refuse to keep making the payments, the software simply stops working! The company has lost nothing.
GW are doing very well financially and the product is equal to Jaws in most respects, in fact since the new scripting language was introduced, I expect we'll see more and more accessible solutions being offered on the Windoweyes platform before long. Yet they feel able to play fare where purchasing of Windoweyes is concerned by having a lower price initially, lowered priced upgrades and a payment plan to make it easier for low income customers to buy the product in the first place, and Freedom Scientific are so worried about how quickly the Windoweyes customer base is growing that they've decided to go for this totally frivolous legal battle.
Yes blind people on state benefits do quite well in the UK, but this country is the exception rather than the rule Neil. Disabled people in America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada are far worse off than we are, to say nothing of the other hundreds of countries where the situation is almost indescribable.
And can anyone tell me why access solutions cost so much in this country? It certainly has nothing to do with taxation because Microsoft products don't cost all that much more here than anywhere else in the World for example, and we don't pay VAT on adapted goods anyway. Freedom Scientific and other US manufacturers are screwing the British over good and proper, and there's only one reason for it that I can see, its because they can.
Matt -------------------------------------------------- From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 12:31 PM To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news...
Well in this case we are I'm afraid to say. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If the companies in question reduced their prices or even gave more affordable options for people to pay then more people would pay for said products. It's only their own stupidity that keeps the market small. There's tons of people out there who may want a jaws payment plan but does it exist? No. so where do they go, to gw micro. And why is this, because the fools at freedom scientific only see what's coming in now not what will come in if they made their products more affordable to their customer base both currant and future. It's simple mathematics. If you can't afford 800 quid in 1 hit but can pay another company who produces and equivalent product at the same price 80 quid for 10 months not including interest what is that person more likely to go for? Assuming they're willing to pay that extra amount of interest on top. The point is that the option isn't there. If it was, then I think you'd find less people wining and bitching about it because it could be more affordable. Again, we're right, everybody else is wrong. -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - TalkNav Sent: 27 September 2009 12:23 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news... And just why is that, just because more are for than against, doesn't mean that the majority are right. ---Neil Barnfather TalkNav TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility software reseller and authorized distributor of Wayfinder products, with product activation codes delivered direct to your mailbox, why not try TalkNav today? www.talknav.com www.wayfinderaccess.com Telephone from the UK: 0844 412 1062 Telephone outside the UK: +44 161 277 7997 -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Darren Harris Sent: 27 September 2009 12:19 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news... So? The majority of people don't have to spend 700 quid plus just to make a computer work for them so it balances out IMO. Yes if you got a job that's totally cool and all that and power to anybody that has. But even for those in employment it's still expensive, prohibitibely so. Sorry neil but this is an argument you just aren't going to win here. There are more against this than are for it whether people like it or not. -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - TalkNav Sent: 27 September 2009 12:14 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news... Low incomes, do you know with DLA< SDA, Income support, housing benefit and council tax relief that the equivalents salary to a tax payer is more or less like £20,000 per year and if not more... Get over yourself. ---Neil Barnfather TalkNav TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility software reseller and authorized distributor of Wayfinder products, with product activation codes delivered direct to your mailbox, why not try TalkNav today? www.talknav.com www.wayfinderaccess.com Telephone from the UK: 0844 412 1062 Telephone outside the UK: +44 161 277 7997 -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matt Brown Sent: 27 September 2009 11:56 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news... Problem is Freedom scientific wants all its money and it wants it now! got to keep paying those fuel bills and green taxes on the private jet don't you know? I do think its disgusting that these companies won't even offer a payment plan so blind people on low incomes can spread payment, but as far as I know GW Micro is the only company that offers something like that. Freedom Scientific never have that's for sure. I don't know if the situation has changed, but in point of fact, I think we here in Britain pay a huge amount more for Jaws than Americans do, and that's also disgusting! Matt -------------------------------------------------- From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 11:30 AM To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news...Neil, Gw micro offer very successfully I might add a payment plan for windoweyes. What they do is every 30 days you renew the licence of windoweyes for what ever the amount is I have no idea, so it breaks the cost down for the individual. It can be done. -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - TalkNav Sent: 27 September 2009 11:22 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news... Darren, Perhaps there marketing point is to keep exclusivity? You're assuming they want to sell it... Just another slant, you seem to forget just how much research and development actually costs. When you're developing and researching, but you're going to sell your en product to millions, then it's likely your end price is lower, whenyou're selling to small r groups then your price is higher. Gosh I thought you did economics, prices for accessibility technology is high, higher than I'd like, but do you want access companies to magic research and development which costs millions out of fin air? ---Neil Barnfather TalkNav TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility software reseller and authorized distributor of Wayfinder products, with product activation codes delivered direct to your mailbox, why not try TalkNav today? www.talknav.com www.wayfinderaccess.com Telephone from the UK: 0844 412 1062 Telephone outside the UK: +44 161 277 7997 -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Darren Harris Sent: 25 September 2009 20:38 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news... It's simple logic. If you can't afford it because the kids come first then so be it. It wouldn't be as bad if like gw micro they offered a payment plan. They don't. unless you get the n82 and talks as a bundlebut if you already got a phone then why go down that road so where's the flexibility in that? Sorry but 600 quid is way too much for the majority of people to shell out on and it's stupid to expect a ton of people to buy it. -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Dryden Sent: 25 September 2009 20:33 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news... My god, what an archaic attitude! With that, we'd all be in the ghettos! I mean, before we had computers with speech, we had manual typewriters, blind people did ok then as well! In fact, what's the point of progression anyway? Haha, not starting an argument, just putting my point over!Tobe honest, yes, KNF is a bit expensive but as with most of this type of technology, it's all expensive because of the R & D. And, sorry, you just can't get away from it. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 7:01 PM Subject: [talks-uk] Re: FW: Re: Any more news...Well like I've said before, take a family of 4, 1 or both parents areblind and both have phones. So who goes without if they can either afford ecentials for the kids or a little programme which is at a ripoff price and quite a few people in prominent potisions just wouldn't recommend it for the price. It's way to much money for what it is. I mean what's the hastle in taking something to your desktop scanner and getting it to read that? Ok it may not be able to do tinsand the like bla bla bla but being honest blind people have coped without that for years so why worry about it now -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DurDevil Sent: 25 September 2009 18:01 To: Talks-Uk Email group Subject: [talks-uk] FW: Re: Any more news... Hi neil. I agree that we dont want to start a arguement but if it wasslightly more affordable then it would reach more customers and now the main idea has been developed it surely could come down in price. Jaws for a pc is expensive and Talks for mobiles puts similar functionality into peoples pockets but if Nuance expected pricing likeFS it would not reach as many people. These programs are worth their weight to blind people but just think of how many peoples lives couldbe improved if it was all more affordable. Cheers. Pete -original message- Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Any more news... From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <talks@xxxxxxxxxxx> Date: 25/09/2009 5:47 pm Darren, KNFB Mobile Reader is I'm afraid well worth the price, I don't want toget into a shouting match about this, but when you consider the cost of Kertzvil standard PC software and a scanner, verse that of a phonewhich can go with you anywhere and read odd shaped products it's wellworth every penny. ---Neil Barnfather TalkNav TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility software reseller and authorized distributor of Wayfinder products, with product activation codes delivered direct to your mailbox, why not try TalkNav today? www.talknav.com www.wayfinderaccess.com Telephone from the UK: 0844 412 1062 Telephone outside the UK: +44 161 277 7997 -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Darren Harris Sent: 25 September 2009 16:17 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Any more news... Lol with 3 letters gone are they going to reduce the price as well tomake it worth buying? -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie Cairns Sent: 25 September 2009 16:16 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Any more news... Hi Neil K-Reader is now known officially as the software that used to be called K-NFB Reader, least that's my understanding. Jackie Cairns Braille Specialist Email: jackie.cairns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sight and Sound Technology Ltd Welton House North Wing Summerhouse Road Moulton Park Northampton NN3 6WD Tel: 01604 798024 Mob: 07887 883815 www.sightandsound.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather -TalkNav Sent: 25 September 2009 14:07 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Any more news... Jackie, Do you mean K Reader or KNFB Reader, they are two different products? ---Neil Barnfather TalkNav TalkNav is a Nuance Accessibility software reseller and authorized distributor of Wayfinder products, with product activation codes delivered direct to your mailbox, why not try TalkNav today? www.talknav.com www.wayfinderaccess.com Telephone from the UK: 0844 412 1062 Telephone outside the UK: +44 161 277 7997 -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie Cairns Sent: 25 September 2009 13:39 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Any more news... Hi Steve I now have the K-Reader on my N86, and will run it alongside my work N82 at the weekend for a comparison. I love the N86's chunky feel, and the buttons are so much more tactile all round than the N82. Often, customers struggle with the Talks/Menu button on the N82, and the soft key positions. They shouldn't experience the same issues with the N86 as the buttons are so nicely spaced out. I've tried the FM transmitter, and this works a treat if you keep thephone fairly close to the radio or system you are putting it through. I'm looking forward to spending more time with it and the N82 this weekend. Jackie Cairns Braille Specialist Email: jackie.cairns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sight and Sound Technology Ltd Welton House North Wing Summerhouse Road Moulton Park NorthamptonNN3 6WD Tel: 01604 798024 Mob: 07887 883815 www.sightandsound.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt Sent: 25 September 2009 11:48 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Any more news... Hi Jackie, The processor is faster in the N86 than either phone, the camera is obviously better, and if you have tried KNFB Reader on it, you would see that it is miles faster than the N82. It is a little heavy in my view, but the butoons on it are just as nice as the N82, if not a bit wider. An all-round good phone, and the battery life is even better than theN82 in my experience. The N79 is pretty good, but it doesn't have the 8MP camera which helpsKNFB, and KNFB won't let you run it on the N79, I think they are justbeing paranoid and will have to do something soon, because TextScout is excellent on it. All the best Steve -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie Cairns Sent: Friday 25 September 2009 11:45 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Any more news... Hi Steve So you've got the N86? What do you love about it, and how do you think it compares to the N82 and N79? Really interested in what you have to say. Jackie Cairns Braille Specialist Email: jackie.cairns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sight and Sound Technology Ltd Welton House North Wing Summerhouse Road Moulton Park NorthamptonNN3 6WD Tel: 01604 798024 Mob: 07887 883815 www.sightandsound.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt Sent: 25 September 2009 11:20 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Re: Any more news... Hi Matt, No news yet. But I love my N86. All the best Steve -----Original Message----- From: talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:talks-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matt Brown Sent: Friday 25 September 2009 11:08 To: talks-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [talks-uk] Any more news... Hi, is there any more news about N97 and Talks? I'm getting to a pointwhere I really have to make a decision, N86 or N97! I don't want to be lumbered with an N97 if speech is months and months away if it comes at all, but of the 2 handsets it has the feature set I'm looking for!Apart from the 8 MP camera the N86 doesn't look a whole lot more powerful than the N82 in reality, whereas the N97 is massivo! 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