Yes, I do. Do you want to give it a go? Best Regards, Steve Lee Ritchey wrote: > Iv've got the test PCBs, do you have the tools? > > Lee > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Cc: Charles Harrington <ch_harrington@xxxxxxxxx>; >> > <shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; > <sunil_bharadwaz@xxxxxxxxx>; SI LIST <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Date: 11/20/2007 5:45:16 PM >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Signal crossing Split plane >> >> Lee I don't think the original problem would have warranted >> measurements. But the thread has moved significantly since then. It >> might be a fun test of Simbeor to model your test vehicle and compare >> results. Rather than just drive with a TDR, it might be fun to drive >> with a pulse generator that can be set to the simulated resonant >> frequency and see if doing so impacts measured results in real life the >> way simulation predicts. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> >> Steve. >> Lee Ritchey wrote: >> >>> I've watched this thread for a while now and haven't seen anyone suggest >>> making measurements. I've done lots of that and have several test >>> > boards > >>> in my lab that represent the kind of plane splitting that is done to >>> accommodate two Vdds in the same plane. I've run traces over these >>> > splits > >>> and measured them with a TDR with a rise time of 40 pSEC. There is no >>> detectable disturbance of the signal when this is done. (Of course, the >>> Vdd PDS designs need to be done such that the frequencies in the signals >>> crossing the planes can be properly supported. If that has not been >>> > done, > >>> worrries about crossing plane splits will be the minor problem.) >>> >>> I've also measured hundreds of vias used to change layers from top to >>> bottom of a PCB and from adjacent layer to adjacent layer. Again, >>> measuring these vias with the same TDR they behave as though someone has >>> attached a very small parasitic capacitor, on the order of .5 pF for a >>> > 12 > >>> mil drill in a 100 mil thick PCB. There has been no detectable >>> > coupling of > >>> energy into the space between planes. >>> >>> Same thing for right angle bends. Not a detectable source of signal >>> degradation or EMI. >>> >>> Sometimes a little lab time saves a lot of agony and speculation. >>> >>> If there are those out there who have tests that prove otherwise, >>> > perhaps > >>> they should publish the results. I've published mine several times as >>> > have > >>> others. >>> >>> Hope this helps those who are confused by all of the complex >>> > explanations > >>> that have been offered without any supporting measurements. >>> >>> Lee Ritchey >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> [Original Message] >>>> From: Charles Harrington <ch_harrington@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> To: <shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Cc: <sunil_bharadwaz@xxxxxxxxx>; SI LIST <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Date: 11/20/2007 2:45:54 PM >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Signal crossing Split plane >>>> >>>> Yuriy, >>>> I agree with some of your views. However, they contradict your via >>>> >>>> >>> models. >>> >>> >>>> I couldn’t reply yesterday, because I was trying search for the >>>> >>>> >>> reference I mentioned, since you needed it. Many other people replied >>> off-line and so needed the reference. Got it from IEEE Xplore. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A Novel Methodology for Defining the Boundaries of Geometrical >>>> >>>> >>> Discontinuities in Electronic Packages >>> >>> >>>> Ndip, I.; Reichl, H.; Guttowski, S.; >>>> Research in Microelectronics and Electronics 2006, Ph. D. >>>> 12- 15 June 2006 Page(s):193 - 196 >>>> >>>> >>>> You mentioned in your mail that the near field zone as a result of >>>> > the > >>>> >>>> >>> higher-order modes excited at the via expands with frequency and is very >>> small. I agree with you. >>> >>> >>>> But the question is this. How small is it? How small or big is at 1 >>>> >>>> >>> GHz, 10 GHz, 20 GHz? Have you ever studied it? You have to take this >>> > zone > >>> into consideration when studying vias or any other structures that >>> > excite > >>> higher order modes. >>> >>> >>>> The method proposed in this paper is quite illustrative and >>>> > useful. I > >>>> >>>> >>> understand it this way (Please correct me if I understand it wrongly): >>> >>> >>>> These higher-order modes (e.g., TE, TM...) are characteristics of >>>> > the > >>>> >>>> >>> trace or transmission line and they die exponentially away from the >>> > point > >>> of excitation, i.e., the via-trace interface. S-parameters, like other >>> network parameters, give us the relation between input and output >>> > signals. > >>> Now, to obtain S11, for example, you need to get the ratio of the >>> > reflected > >>> and input signals. Both signals must be of the same "type". We can not >>> directly compare cars and aeroplanes, though both are used for >>> transportation. You know your input signal (e.g., a transverse >>> electromagnetic wave), because you excited it at the port. At >>> discontinuities, an infinite order of given higher-order modes can be >>> excited. The orders or strength of the excited modes differ from one >>> discontinuity to another, although the modes can be the same. So, there >>> > is > >>> no way you can know all the orders of the higher-order modes excited and >>> how they interact. Now if you place your ports quite close to the point >>> >>> >>>> of excitation of these modes, then your S-parameters must be wrong. >>>> > Why? > >>>> >>>> >>> In this case, to obtain S11, you need to obtain the ratio of the unknown >>> higher-order modes and your known excited transverse electromagnetic >>> > wave > >>> at the port. That’s why in most 3D full-wave solvers, it is recommended >>> that ports should be placed far away from the discontinuities, so as to >>> enable these higher-order modes to die. When they die, then you can >>> > easily > >>> define your S-parameters which will then be the ratio of the input >>> > signal > >>> you know (transverse electromagnetic wave) and the reflected signal you >>> know (transverse electromagnetic wave). To define the points where these >>> modes die or have attenuated substantially, these authors argued that >>> > near > >>> the discontinuity, the imaginary part of the Poynting vector describes >>> > the > >>> reactive energy associated with these higher-order modes. So they >>> > studied > >>> this imaginary part and used it to define the point where the modes >>> > die. I > >>> think they mentioned that only >>> >>> >>>> at a distance of about 1mm away from the via-trace interface, at 20 >>>> > GHz > >>>> >>>> >>> (or may be 30 GHz) may you place your ports, to get correct results. >>> Certainly, this depends on the via geometry and trace type. But I find >>> > the > >>> results very helpful and can be used as a base for further experiments. >>> > You > >>> can get the details from the paper. >>> >>> >>>> Unfortunately in your case, you compare what you don’t know >>>> > (reflected > >>>> >>>> >>> signal) and what you know (excited input signal). In your via models, >>> neither did you define the required distance away from the via-trace >>> interface needed for these modes to die nor did you follow the advice >>> > given > >>> in full-wave solvers to be far way from the via-trace interface. You >>> considered the via just as the barrel and the pads at 20 GHz and beyond. >>> That’s why I mentioned yesterday that your via models are not correct >>> > and > >>> your S-parameter results are misleading. If you wish to study only the >>> behaivor of the barrel alone at lower frequencies (for what ever reason >>> > - > >>> but not for realistic designs), then you don't even need a field solver. >>> You can get formulas from good SI texts like that of Horward Johnson or >>> from papers. >>> >>> >>>> At first I was also making the same mistakes as you are making right >>>> >>>> >>> now. I had a lot of difficulties to correlate my simulation and >>> > measurement > >>> results. So I learnt a lot from this paper, from Professor C. Balanis >>> (Advanced engineering electromagnetics) and from Professor R. Collins >>> (Field theory of guided waves). I think these references will be good >>> > for > >>> you. You need all three of them. >>> >>> >>>> There are also a lot of points that you need to modify in your >>>> > models. > >>>> It’s ridiculous when you talk of -30 dB attenuation of higher-order >>>> >>>> >>> modes. Which higher-order mode? Which order of this mode? Basic >>> electromagnetic theory teaches us that an infinite order of a given >>> higher-order mode can be excited at any discontinuity. An interaction >>> between makes matters worst. So how do you separate the different >>> > orders of > >>> the modes and tell which one attenuates by -30 dB? Are the modes >>> propagating or evanescent? Never use rule of thumbs that have no base. I >>> supposed you meant attenuation of the fundamental mode which is >>> propagating. >>> >>> >>>> I don’t know anything about the lumped ports you use. All I know is >>>> >>>> >>> that some lumped ports in some field solvers assume perfect H boundary >>> conditions on the sides. Consequently, depending you may not even >>> > capture > >>> stray fields. So you can even get the worst results with lumped ports. >>> >>> >>>> You can only shift your reference S-parameters plane and get accurate >>>> >>>> >>> results if your model captured all the necessary field behavior. But you >>> can not simulate the via and traces differently and then do some >>> post-processing or circuit modeling afterwards and expect to get correct >>> results at higher frequencies. The traces too are part of the “via >>> > effect” > >>> at least, at the frequencies you are interested in (20 GHz and beyond), >>> because the stored higher-order modes give rise to additional >>> > inductances > >>> and capacitances. These inductances and capacitances can not be >>> > captured if > >>> you analyze the vias separately from their traces. >>> >>> >>>> Finally, the theory of multi-modal decomposition means different >>>> > things > >>>> >>>> >>> to different electrical engineers. So I don’t know what you mean. If you >>> mean that different parts of a system can be analyzed separately and >>> > then > >>> put together, then it’s true that it has been done for decades now. But >>> > the > >>> question is this. How do you bring the different parts together in the >>> > case > >>> where there are discontinuities like vias? How do you define the via? >>> > How > >>> small or big is your near field zone? I bet you, we have not yet >>> > understood > >>> this type of decomposition and it has not been done, or at least >>> > published > >>> for decades. Whenever we have to deal with vias and other >>> > discontinuities > >>> at higher frequencies, straight-forward modeling can not be used. >>> >>> >>>> Please Yuryi, don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to highlight on >>>> > your > >>>> >>>> >>> errors. I have mine too, like any body else. No one is perfect. I’m just >>> trying to raise the point that we need to be careful when modeling vias >>> > at > >>> your frequencies. I agree with most of the points you made, but >>> > disagree on > >>> the ones stated above. We learn from each other when we exchange ideas >>> about such fundamental issues that affect our modeling results. I think >>> that is one of the reasons why Ray and his team set up this forum. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Best regards. >>>> Charles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yuriy Shlepnev <shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Charles, >>>> >>>> I am sorry that the simulation examples were not helpful to you. I will >>>> appreciate if you send me the reference you mentioned - I am preparing >>>> > to > >>>> >>>> >>> be >>> >>> >>>> shocked:) >>>> >>>> You are absolutely right, the via-holes are not just pads and barrels >>>> > and > >>>> there is no one solution that covers all possible cases. Analysis of >>>> different vias has to be done in different ways. Transition to the >>>> > traces > >>>> have to be almost always included in the final model for analysis of >>>> multi-gigabit channels. Moreover sometime the via-hole problem cannot >>>> > be > >>>> solved locally and require analysis of parallel plane structures with >>>> > all > >>>> decoupling structures attached (see technical presentation #1 at >>>> http://www.simberian.com/Presentations.php for more details on >>>> > different > >>>> structures). >>>> >>>> Considering the ports and excitation. Analysis of via-holes with lumped >>>> ports provides just rough idea about the via-hole behavior. It is >>>> > similar > >>>> >>>> >>> to >>> >>> >>>> what you would see from a differential probe attached to the pads of >>>> > the > >>>> via-holes. Transition to traces and transmission line or wave-ports >>>> > have > >>>> >>>> >>> to >>> >>> >>>> be used for the final extraction of S-parameters for the system-level >>>> analysis (I am sorry that you missed this part in app notes). Note >>>> > that it > >>>> is possible only for the localizable via-holes or via-holes not >>>> > coupled to > >>>> parallel planes in general. Such t-line ports have to be positioned at >>>> > a > >>>> distance from the via-hole that guaranties that the high-order modes >>>> > are > >>>> attenuated substantially (for practical applications we usually use >>>> > -30 dB > >>>> threshold at the highest frequency of interest). After such analysis, >>>> > the > >>>> phase reference planes of S-parameters can be safely shifted closer to >>>> > the > >>>> via-hole at the position where t-lines are still continuous to preserve >>>> causality (to the edges of anti-pads for instance). Such transformation >>>> >>>> >>> does >>> >>> >>>> not affect the near field or high order modes around the via-holes and >>>> > the > >>>> final model can be safely connected with the transmission line segments >>>> >>>> >>> in a >>> >>> >>>> system-level solver. Though, the model have to be used with >>>> > transmission > >>>> line segments with length not less than in the electromagnetic analysis >>>> >>>> >>> (to >>> >>> >>>> avoid the near-field interaction between the vias and possible >>>> discontinuities). This technique called the multi-modal >>>> > de-compositional > >>>> analysis and used in microwave engineering for decades at frequencies >>>> > even > >>>> higher than 20 GHz. >>>> Note, that in typical PCB trace the cut-off frequencies for high-order >>>> >>>> >>> modes >>> >>> >>>> are extremely high. 10 mil trace on 10 mil dielectric with dielectric >>>> constant 4.2 have cut-off frequency about 120 GHz, and the cross-over >>>> > with > >>>> the surface TM mode may happen only at 200 GHz. Before 120 GHz the >>>> high-order modes are evanescent and essentially form the via-hole near >>>> field. This near-field zone is expanding with the frequency, but at 20 >>>> > GHz > >>>> the area is still relatively small. Thus S-parameters only for the >>>> >>>> >>> dominant >>> >>> >>>> modes can be safely extracted and used as the via-hole model. >>>> Cases when via-hole excite the non-evanescent parallel-plane modes and >>>> planes are not stitched close to the via-hole cannot be solved locally >>>> >>>> >>> (non >>> >>> >>>> localizable) and may require the system-level analysis with all >>>> > decoupling > >>>> structures attached. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Yuriy >>>> >>>> Yuriy Shlepnev >>>> Simberian Inc. >>>> www.simberian.com >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >>>> >>>> >>> On >>> >>> >>>> Behalf Of Charles Harrington >>>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:33 AM >>>> To: shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Cc: sunil_bharadwaz@xxxxxxxxx; 'SI LIST' >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Signal crossing Split plane >>>> >>>> Yuriy, >>>> not only are your slot simulations on your page not so helpful, but >>>> > your > >>>> via simulations are very misleading. I think you'll run into trouble >>>> > when > >>>> you try to compare your simulation and measurement results, because >>>> > your > >>>> simulation models are unrealistic. >>>> >>>> At such frequencies (20 GHz and beyond), the via can no longer be >>>> >>>> >>> considered >>> >>> >>>> to be just the barrel and the pads, as you did. The modes excited at >>>> > the > >>>> via-trace interface don't die abruptly, but extend along the traces to >>>> > the > >>>> ports. So either you seperate these modes from the originally excited >>>> >>>> >>> modes >>> >>> >>>> at the port (in order to obtain "clean" S-parameters') or you allow the >>>> modes to die before they reach the ports (as recommended in most 3D >>>> full-wave solvers). >>>> I just read a very interesting research paper the other day on defining >>>> >>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>> boundaries of discontinuties, in which these issues are properly >>>> >>>> >>> examined. I >>> >>> >>>> can't really remember the exact title nor its authors at the moment, >>>> > but > >>>> >>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>> paper was presented at a Ph.D. research conference on microelectronics >>>> > and > >>>> electronics somewhere in Europe (Italy, I presume). You'll be shocked >>>> > at > >>>> >>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>> error you are making when you read this work. >>>> You also connected the models of the via and transmission lines after >>>> > the > >>>> simulations, correct? Here you go wrong again, because how do you know >>>> >>>> >>> where >>> >>> >>>> the vias "actually" begin and end? And at what freqency? These are very >>>> complicated issues and I suggest you spend a little more time studying >>>> >>>> >>> them >>> >>> >>>> well. >>>> Thanks. >>>> Charles >>>> >>>> Yuriy Shlepnev wrote: Scott, >>>> >>>> I agree with you. It was just an illustration of a slot-type >>>> > discontinuity > >>>> in general for some stackup configurations. It shows how a slot-type >>>> discontinuity in a reference plane may reflect the signal even in the >>>> > case > >>>> if slot does not cut across the board or around a patch (though, it >>>> > might > >>>> >>>> >>> be >>> >>> >>>> obvious for you). As soon as the coupling to a slot is strong, it has >>>> > to > >>>> >>>> >>> be >>> >>> >>>> simulated at the system level with a complete geometry of the slot or >>>> >>>> >>> split, >>> >>> >>>> with all relevant traces crossing the slot and all de-caps (if any). I >>>> prefer to do it with the hybrid de-compositional approach on the base >>>> > of > >>>> localized models built with an electromagnetic solver. The localized >>>> > strip > >>>> to slot coupling effect can be captured with a 4-port S-parameter model >>>> >>>> >>> for >>> >>> >>>> strip crossing the slot for instance (two ports for the strip and two >>>> > for > >>>> the slot). Combined with the strip and slot line models, it produces a >>>> simple and computationally efficient system-level model that captures >>>> practically all coupling and resonance effects. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Yuriy >>>> >>>> Yuriy Shlepnev >>>> Simberian Inc. >>>> www.simberian.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >>>> >>>> >>> On >>> >>> >>>> Behalf Of Scott McMorrow >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:29 PM >>>> To: shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Cc: sunil_bharadwaz@xxxxxxxxx; 'SI LIST' >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Signal crossing Split plane >>>> >>>> Yuriy >>>> >>>> Actually, these sorts of slot simulations are pretty meaningless. >>>> > Slots > >>>> normally occur due to plane splits. As a result, the either extend >>>> > from > >>>> one edge of a board to another edge, or when the plane is a square >>>> > patch > >>>> the slot is a closed loop around the periphery of the plane. When >>>> > this > >>>> happens, it is quite interesting to simulate multiple signals crossing >>>> the slot. There is a very nice slot resonance mode that occurs that >>>> > is > >>>> generally in the signal bandwidth (or at least 3rd harmonic) because >>>> > of > >>>> the length of the slot. This induces a signficant amount of ringing >>>> > and > >>>> crosstalk into neighboring traces. >>>> >>>> scott >>>> >>>> Scott McMorrow >>>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC >>>> 121 North River Drive >>>> Narragansett, RI 02882 >>>> (401) 284-1827 Business >>>> (401) 284-1840 Fax >>>> >>>> http://www.teraspeed.com >>>> >>>> TeraspeedR is the registered service mark of >>>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yuriy Shlepnev wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Sunil, >>>>> >>>>> A simple example of how an electromagnetic solver can be used to >>>>> >>>>> >>>> investigate >>>> >>>> >>>>> the effect of a slot or split in a reference plane is provided at >>>>> http://www.simberian.com/AppNotes.php - see the topmost app note. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Yuriy >>>>> >>>>> Yuriy Shlepnev >>>>> Simberian Inc. >>>>> www.simberian.com >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >>>>> >>>>> >>>> On >>>> >>>> >>>>> Behalf Of sunil bharadwaz >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:26 AM >>>>> To: SI LIST >>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Signal crossing Split plane >>>>> >>>>> Hi , >>>>> I have few signals (@ 80 Mhz & 20 Mhz) crossing the split Power >>>>> plane in the adjacent layer. >>>>> >>>>> The 20 Mhz signal is diffrerential signal.The 80 Mhz is a single >>>>> ended signal. >>>>> >>>>> I want to analyse the affect on Signal Integrity of these two >>>>> signals due to split plane. >>>>> >>>>> I believe one need to define his stack up (Including the >>>>> split) & then extract the layout to simulate. >>>>> >>>>> I'am not too sure if the prevalent SI tools have an option >>>>> of creating split planes . >>>>> >>>>> Pls suggest me a right tool to carry out this.Also , i'am >>>>> looking for a free tool to start with (even if the accuracy >>>>> is slightly limited). >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in Advance!! >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Sunil.Bh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------- >>>>> Be a better pen pal. 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See >>>> >>>> >>> how. >>> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>>> >>>> For help: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> >>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>> http://www.si-list.net >>>> >>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>>> or at our remote archives: >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>> >>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>> >>> For help: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>> >>> >>> List technical documents are available at: >>> http://www.si-list.net >>> >>> List archives are viewable at: >>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>> or at our remote archives: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Steve Weir >> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC >> 121 North River Drive >> Narragansett, RI 02882 >> >> California office >> (408) 884-3985 Business >> (707) 780-1951 Fax >> >> Main office >> (401) 284-1827 Business >> (401) 284-1840 Fax >> >> Oregon office >> (503) 430-1065 Business >> (503) 430-1285 Fax >> >> http://www.teraspeed.com >> This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property >> > of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------- > >> Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group >> > LLC > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> > > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (408) 884-3985 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu