[SI-LIST] Re: Do you ever measure any of the things you model?
- From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:27:10 -0700
Chris,
Theoretically good suggestions.
In practice, however, if I was still at my previous employer, I would
say something like this: Converting the internal SPICE models to HSPICE
was pushed below the ZBB line, but even if it is done here and there,
reducing the higher number of transistor model parameters in the =
internal
models to the fewer available parameters in HSPICE causes accuracy
degradation, so use it at your own risk. It is also hard to find a
big enough stick to push the ZBB line around...
In my current employment situation I would ask the question, why HSPICE,
why not encrypted Eldo transistor models? It is just as good, if not
better than HSPICE... And I am sure others may step in here with their
favorite SPICE flavor too.
Also, most model consumers would probably feel that it is not their
responsibility to make models for the products they are purchasing
from their parts suppliers...
I am not trying to argue with you saying the above, I just want to
illustrate my agreement on the point that life is not perfect.
Arpad
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-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 7:05 PM
To: Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Do you ever measure any of the things you =
model?
>1) I don't think I was bad mouthing my previous employer, at least
>I didn't intend to. What I wrote were facts, and as a result of
>our SI correlation work, improvements were also made to the SPICE
>models.
DT can generate external SPICE to as accurate level as you want from =
internal models. It is just a matter of how big a stick you can bring to =
their office to move their ZBB line. ;-D
>2) The rest of your writing reminds me to another saying: "You can
>lead to horse to the water, but you can't force it to drink".
>
>So, how do we get people to write better models?
>
>Arpad
The first step to solve the problem is to admit we have a problem. We =
should stop claiming we have perfect correlation when we can't even =
model the real problem. I am not talking about whether the tool we use =
is capable of doing it, I am talking about whether the actual model we =
generate includes the effects or not.
What do you think about start with giving out encrypted HSPICE ? Yes, =
.global or internal vs. external spice can be a problem but at least =
that is a higher and more flexible base to start. From that you can =
generate your favorite IBIS or AMS levels, either by the customer or by =
your customers hired gun. Give the responsibility into the customers =
hand. Let them control their own destiny. This is just a matter of =
logistic, let's not get into which tool is favor by who. My thinking =
always has been the semiconductor house themselves has to design their =
chips with SPICE and characterize their I/O in SPICE no matter it is =
internal version or industrial standard SPICE anyways. It may be slow or =
it may be clumsy, but it is something readily available and a good =
starting point to do greater and more wonderful things such as AMS or =
IBIS. I have yet to hear a semiconductor foundry not supporting HSPICE =
anyways.
Life is not perfect, I am just trying to suggest a common starting =
point, not the end game.
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