I know the fancy BIRD and new specs.=20 I am asking who is stepping up to the plate and deliver them to = customers.=20 The last time we talked about IBIS with SSO, it was many many many years = ago. The spec and BIRD were out then too, yet I have heard of no one = delivering model like that. In the mean time, DDR1 is gone and DDR2 is = on its way to become DDR3, am I the only one seeing SSO problems in them = ? Or everyone just look the other way and claim perfect correlation with = only one driver switching and call it a day ? I know 100Gb/s SERDES are the heat right now. But there are those of us = need to ship systems with memory on board. I am just asking for help.=20 Now let me have a show of hands, who's willing to step to the plate ? .......sounds of cricket........ =20 -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:58 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Do you ever measure any of the things you model? Chris, SSO is a fairly difficult thing to model behaviorally, but we have at least two BIRD-s which intend to provide means to the legacy IBIS style behavioral modeling to help that situation. BIRD 95.6: http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/birds/bird95.6.txt and BIRD 98.3: http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/birds/bird98.3.txt Since we are getting very close to the release of the next major revision of the IBIS specification, these BIRD's will most likely become an official part of the IBIS 5.0 spec rather soon. And the reason I used the words "legacy IBIS style" above is because if someone is not shy about using any of the *-AMS extensions of IBIS, they can write out their heart's content using those modeling languages to include any SSO effect they wish. These extensions have been available since IBIS 4.1 was ratified in January of 2004. I agree, it may be debatable whether it is easier to simulate SSO with transistor models instead of figuring out how to model those effects behaviorally. However, I would like to caution the non-suspecting bystander that more transistor models than you would like to see make use of that handy little shorthand feature called .global, making SSO simulations useless or impossible. Add to that some encryption, and you are out of luck. Arpad =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D -----Original Message----- From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]=3D20 Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:32 PM To: Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Do you ever measure any of the things you =3D model? There is always this little problem called memory. FBDIMM is not taking = =3D off. DDR2/3 is around everywhere. I guarantee you I've seen SSO in DDR channels, a lot. How does one =3D correlate DDR models without SSO ? -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:25 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Do you ever measure any of the things you model? Chris, I think the dance floor is called SERDES these days. I haven't seen anyone using transistor level models in that field to get BER estimates down to double digit exponents. Whether it is done in C, Matlab, *-AMS, doesn't matter, its still behavioral modeling, isn't it? Of course, this is a slightly different topic from matching I-V and V-t curves, but no one can escape the correlation steps in this world either, as they shouldn't in the SPICE world either... And I think this thread started mainly around the topic of correlation. Arpad ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]=3D3D20 Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:31 PM To: Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Do you ever measure any of the things you = =3D3D model? Arpad, I don't think we need to go into a flame war again. I just want to know who is actually shipping IBIS 4.0 or 4.1 models to = =3D =3D3D customer that can do SSO. We are all dress up, I need to know where's the party ? The Gala Ball of SPICE models for customers with ten million dollar PO = =3D =3D3D is out of my league, I am settling for the IBIS for the mass punk rave. = =3D =3D3D Please tell me where is the dance floor ? ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: =20 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu