Re: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?)

  • From: "Don Marang" <donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:15:01 -0400

I think you are right! I had not considered that. It sounds like Oracle has not either. Perhaps they only will attempt to make Google pay license fees just to avoid the hassle.


Thanks for this upliftting thought. I was getting sick thinking of all Open Source activities under a Black Cloud and resources drying up due to possibilities of future court cases.

Don Marang

There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any real substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am working on things that matter.
Dean Kamen


--------------------------------------------------
From: "DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:31 PM
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes.  The scenario for
taking any G.P.L. Licensed project into patent trademark copyright or
registered status is and will remain very grim for anyone trying to do
it.  Let's just say Oracle gets injunctions and gets all their cash cows
in the barn.  For a little while life will be good for Oracle but that
at most will be a very short while.  What will happen in the meantime is
that some foreign Government without reciprocal intellectual property
agreements with the United States or ones that get enforced differently
in that foreign country sooner or later will decide that work needs to
continue on the formerly G.P.L. project so the first thing they'll do is
to release a new version of the software on the internet with foreign
language translation capabilities built in like they were in the old
days and the developers that were enjoined from working on stuff that is
now Oracle's will download that foreign version of the software and be
happily back at work in short order.  That work will make a separate
branch not under Oracle's control or ownership and the courts in the
United States will find it impossible in the end to enforce any
protections for Oracle's property.  Everybody gets a new version of the
software and development just keeps going on.  Integration of the
necessary quantity of modifications to create the new branch will be the
first thing the developers take on and then they'll just go on from
there.  Linus Torvalds and Richard M. Stallman it turns out were smarter
than the whole court system; Congress, and all the practicing lawyers in
the United States when they started all of this out all those years ago.
Don't worry, firms that have more jingle than brains simply aren't
equipped to play in this league.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:12
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows
Accessible?)

True. This move could scare plenty of people away from using, or
continuing to use, Java for commercial applications, and there goes
its usefulness to future developers and companies...

On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
<jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, Android is G.P.L. and wasn't even
originally developed by or at google.  Where the development started
was
at Carnegie Mellon University and that operating system was made
available to google by the University.  Very likely the University
didn't charge for the operating system so that along with the G.P.L.
licensing could substantially weaken Oracle's case.  Another
consideration here is that if Oracle starts demanding licensing fees
from every java application on the planet, that'll shut the
development
off hard fast and permanently of new technologies done with java.  The
solaris operating system which Oracle bought is a true security turkey
having more problems than Linux even to this day.  I know that because
of other contacts I have at work and they've had occasion to use it
and
clean up too many of its messes.  That won't be a cash cow for that
reason, at least not for a while and several major releases.  Just
because a predatory firm has jingle in its pocket doesn't necessarily
entitle it to do strip mining on acquired resources but in Oracle's
specific case, the acquisition crew didn't do sufficient due diligence
and had more jingle in their pockets than operational brains in their
heads.  So far as I'm concerned, couldn't happen to more nicer and
deserving people.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don Marang
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 13:19
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?

Now that is a rational angle I had not considered.  Unfortunately,
Oracle
seems to think they bought a cash cow.  It is possible they might
require
paid licences for Java used anywhere.  I have not checked the license
terms
that Sun has placed on this software.  I assumed that it was a GPL
Open
Source type.  Does anyone know?  It seems kind of strange to change
license
terms after years and years.

Don Marang

There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any
real
substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am
working
on things that matter.
Dean Kamen


--------------------------------------------------
From: "DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26"
<jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:45 PM
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?

Well, maybe Oracle can make a case.  What I'd like to see the Courts
do
is to give Oracle a provisional victory such that for as long as
Oracle
actively supports Android software development they can continue to
collect money.  When they discontinue support, their time to collect
money from Android would also properly end.  Now if such a precedent
as
that were extended to cover the rest of the software industry, I
think
we would witness the end of the days when titles were being added to
the
abandonware list.  Also, in that way a collection right comes with a
software development support responsibility.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:21
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?

Well, Oracle bought Sun Micro Systems, so they bought Java along with
everything else owned by Sun. Now, since Android is written in Java
and runs atop a virtual machine, Oracle is trying to say that they
are
entitled to some of the money made by Android since it is written in
a
language Oracle now owns.

On 8/18/10, katherine Moss <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Holy moly!  What's going on there?  What's Oracle suing Google for?



From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don
Marang
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:38 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?



Is all Android app development based on Google's version of Java?
Are
there
reasonable resources I can point developers to for Android
accessibility
implementation?  As a potential user / tinkerer, I would like to
know
as
well and hopefully be in a better position to provide positive
feedback.



Will the threatened Oracle lawsuit of Google over Java damage
Android's
success?  Will it destroy inovation and Open Source if they win?

Don Marang



There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of
any
real
substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am
working
on things that matter.
Dean Kamen



From: Ken Perry <mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:52 PM

To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?



This is sort of what Android is doing even if they have not went far
enough
yet.  They have an accessible event that is thrown by all controls
excepting
static and some other problems but at any rate if you use basic
controls you
get the accessible events if however you want to make a custom
action
you
can also throw accessible events that the screen readers like talk
back will
catch and speak or the accessibility tools like kick back and sound
back can
catch and do something with.  So its part developer putting in
special
access and part developer using the controls that are already
accessible.
The unfortunate problem is what you get is only part accessible in
most
cases.  I am not saying Android is not accessible I am saying what
Android
is once again proving is if you leave it up to the developer at all
us
as
developers are too lazy to do it.  Take me for example if I as a
blind
coder
wrote a scrabble game I would not think of special cases for high
resolution
graphic cards to have spinning tiles or something to make the game
more
interesting for a sited player.  I would be shooting for my target
audience.
The reverse is even worse not only are sighted programmers used to
rapid
development and anything that slows them down out, but they wouldn't
know
what we need to have sent to make something accessible unless we
point
it
out.  Here is an example under the Android platform.  The default
media
player has very accessible artist and song lists. But when you open
them
they say nothing for example When you open the media layer you are
on
a tab
screen and when you arrow left and right it says artist albums and
songs.
If you click on artist nothing happens or at least as a blind person
hears
it nothing at all happens.  If however you are sighted you will
notice
that
a whole list below opens up sort of like a tree but it's more like
an
expanded list.  If you don't know what you're doing and you click on
it
again because you thought nothing happened it would close the list.
Now a
sighted coder wouldn't know this is a problem and the current access
frame
work doesn't take this into account.  What should have happened is a
open
event should have been thrown even though focus didn't change there
should
have been a notification.  Well it would have cost maybe 10 lines a
code to
make this work but those lines are not easy to find and if you don't
know it
needs to be there well you're not going to go looking in the
View.java
class
and the accessible_inf_event.java class to figure out how it works
because
you don't know you need to.



So how do we fix this?  My answer is better thought out tool kits.
Once the
developers can just use and it will be accessible.  If they make
accustom
control then don't do something for accessibility it will error.
Will
this
ever happen.  My answer is no but shrug I hope I am wrong.



Ken



From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay
Macarty
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:29 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?



One of the ideas I have been toying with for the java screen reader
(either
we4java or jac) is providing a set of runtime annotations which
could
be
used to enhance an application's accessibility by allowing the app
developer
to put in self voicing annotations. There are differing schools of
thought
on self voicing. Some say it is good because the developer knows the
app
best and where self voicing would be helpful. On the other hand,
putting in
self voicing without providing the user a way of controling it or
turning
off certain levels of it, takes away from the user's control over
the
accessibility feedback. If we put self voicing annotations into the
java
screen reader, a developer could add them in if desired but the base
screen
reader code base would still have control and could provide a common
mechanism for allowing the user to adjust the self voicing feedback.



----- Original Message -----

From: Ken Perry <mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:20 PM

Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?



I agree with Chris H.'s answer but I want to point out it's our
fault
it's
not already accessible.  I wrote a simple talking java screen reader
that
did very little but it made it so I could use  Open Office. Crappily
but the
buttons talked and all and I did this in like 200 lines of code.  I
know
that code got passed around and I have since lost my copy but it
can
be
done by replacing the access bridge with self voicing code.  It just
takes
someone actually doing it.



I am interested to see where Open Office goes now that it is
Oricals.
I am
worried about all Java stuff now that Orical is trying to Sew Google
into
stopping Android.  It's a crazy world.



Ken

From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
Roos
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:30 AM
To: programmingblind
Subject: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?



Hi List,

Sorry if this question has been raised before and dealt with. Does
anyone
know exactly why the Windows version of Open Office is only partly
accessible with a screen reader, while the Linux version is streets
ahead?
Because Open Office is written in Java I assume the code base is 98%
identical across platforms. Is the problem mainly with the JAB (Java
Access
Bridge) or with the screen readers themselves? Could the JAB not be
open
sourced so it can be updated to bridge Java, MSAA, UIA and any other
access
middle ware standard?

NVDA works the best with Open Office, so I would assume it makes the
best
use of the JAB. Is there other Java to access technology middle ware
in
common use today?

I can remember a really long thread that in part had some info on
Java
accessibility, but I just can't justify going through all that to
possibly
find out more.

Keep well


--
Kerneels Roos
Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
Skype: cornelis.roos

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
cheese!





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