I hear it is the same lawyer! Which explains a lot. Don MarangThere is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any real substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am working on things that matter.
Dean Kamen -------------------------------------------------- From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:52 AM To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Subject: RE: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?)
Maybe Oracle is trying to emulate the S.C.O. unix case.C.F.I. will probably end up using open source software in time. After all, the open source community has the most brains and the best software support behind it and none of the closed software houses are in any position to compete on those levels. Especially Microsoft. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of katherine Moss Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 16:15 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?) That might look real bad for CFI one of these days. For your information, that's the insurance company where my Mom works, and since they are into that kind of stuff,I just wonder if Oracle will lose them as a customer of many years. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Midence Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:12 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?) I hope they lose big. It's just plain greed is what it is. I have no problem with companies charging for a product or service that they provided. This, though ... Oracle is not providing a service and is not providing a product, they're just trying to use the legal system to feather their nest. Alex M On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:Technically if I correctly remember my Business Law studies in CollegeIthink what I've described is what the Court system in the UnitedStateswill find to be a pre-existing impossibility and on that basis those courts will be wise to summarily dismiss legal action Oracle may taketoexploit its newly acquired cash cows. Let's see what the intelligence level is in the court system. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:31 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?) Importance: Low Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes. The scenariofortaking any G.P.L. Licensed project into patent trademark copyright or registered status is and will remain very grim for anyone trying to do it. Let's just say Oracle gets injunctions and gets all their cashcowsin the barn. For a little while life will be good for Oracle but that at most will be a very short while. What will happen in the meantimeisthat some foreign Government without reciprocal intellectual property agreements with the United States or ones that get enforceddifferentlyin that foreign country sooner or later will decide that work needs to continue on the formerly G.P.L. project so the first thing they'll doisto release a new version of the software on the internet with foreign language translation capabilities built in like they were in the old days and the developers that were enjoined from working on stuff thatisnow Oracle's will download that foreign version of the software and be happily back at work in short order. That work will make a separate branch not under Oracle's control or ownership and the courts in the United States will find it impossible in the end to enforce any protections for Oracle's property. Everybody gets a new version ofthesoftware and development just keeps going on. Integration of the necessary quantity of modifications to create the new branch will bethefirst thing the developers take on and then they'll just go on from there. Linus Torvalds and Richard M. Stallman it turns out weresmarterthan the whole court system; Congress, and all the practicing lawyersinthe United States when they started all of this out all those yearsago.Don't worry, firms that have more jingle than brains simply aren't equipped to play in this league. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:12 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?) True. This move could scare plenty of people away from using, or continuing to use, Java for commercial applications, and there goes its usefulness to future developers and companies... On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:To the best of my knowledge, Android is G.P.L. and wasn't even originally developed by or at google. Where the development startedwasat Carnegie Mellon University and that operating system was made available to google by the University. Very likely the University didn't charge for the operating system so that along with the G.P.L. licensing could substantially weaken Oracle's case. Another consideration here is that if Oracle starts demanding licensing fees from every java application on the planet, that'll shut thedevelopmentoff hard fast and permanently of new technologies done with java.Thesolaris operating system which Oracle bought is a true securityturkeyhaving more problems than Linux even to this day. I know thatbecauseof other contacts I have at work and they've had occasion to use itandclean up too many of its messes. That won't be a cash cow for that reason, at least not for a while and several major releases. Just because a predatory firm has jingle in its pocket doesn't necessarily entitle it to do strip mining on acquired resources but in Oracle's specific case, the acquisition crew didn't do sufficient duediligenceand had more jingle in their pockets than operational brains in their heads. So far as I'm concerned, couldn't happen to more nicer and deserving people. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DonMarangSent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 13:19 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? Now that is a rational angle I had not considered. Unfortunately, Oracle seems to think they bought a cash cow. It is possible they might require paid licences for Java used anywhere. I have not checked the license terms that Sun has placed on this software. I assumed that it was a GPLOpenSource type. Does anyone know? It seems kind of strange to change license terms after years and years. Don Marang There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid ofanyreal substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am working on things that matter. Dean Kamen -------------------------------------------------- From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:45 PM To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?Well, maybe Oracle can make a case. What I'd like to see the Courtsdois to give Oracle a provisional victory such that for as long asOracleactively supports Android software development they can continue to collect money. When they discontinue support, their time to collect money from Android would also properly end. Now if such a precedentasthat were extended to cover the rest of the software industry, Ithinkwe would witness the end of the days when titles were being added totheabandonware list. Also, in that way a collection right comes with a software development support responsibility. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of AlexHallSent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:21 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? Well, Oracle bought Sun Micro Systems, so they bought Java alongwitheverything else owned by Sun. Now, since Android is written in Java and runs atop a virtual machine, Oracle is trying to say that theyareentitled to some of the money made by Android since it is written inalanguage Oracle now owns. On 8/18/10, katherine Moss <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Holy moly! What's going on there? What's Oracle suing Google for? From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DonMarangSent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:38 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? Is all Android app development based on Google's version of Java?Aretherereasonable resources I can point developers to for Androidaccessibilityimplementation? As a potential user / tinkerer, I would like toknowaswell and hopefully be in a better position to provide positivefeedback.Will the threatened Oracle lawsuit of Google over Java damageAndroid'ssuccess? Will it destroy inovation and Open Source if they win? Don Marang There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid ofanyrealsubstance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that Iamworkingon things that matter. Dean Kamen From: Ken Perry <mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:52 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? This is sort of what Android is doing even if they have not wentfarenoughyet. They have an accessible event that is thrown by all controlsexceptingstatic and some other problems but at any rate if you use basiccontrols youget the accessible events if however you want to make a customactionyoucan also throw accessible events that the screen readers like talkback willcatch and speak or the accessibility tools like kick back and soundback cancatch and do something with. So its part developer putting inspecialaccess and part developer using the controls that are alreadyaccessible.The unfortunate problem is what you get is only part accessible inmostcases. I am not saying Android is not accessible I am saying whatAndroidis once again proving is if you leave it up to the developer at allusasdevelopers are too lazy to do it. Take me for example if I as ablindcoderwrote a scrabble game I would not think of special cases for highresolutiongraphic cards to have spinning tiles or something to make the gamemoreinteresting for a sited player. I would be shooting for my targetaudience.The reverse is even worse not only are sighted programmers used torapiddevelopment and anything that slows them down out, but theywouldn'tknowwhat we need to have sent to make something accessible unless wepointitout. Here is an example under the Android platform. The defaultmediaplayer has very accessible artist and song lists. But when you openthemthey say nothing for example When you open the media layer you areona tabscreen and when you arrow left and right it says artist albums andsongs.If you click on artist nothing happens or at least as a blindpersonhearsit nothing at all happens. If however you are sighted you willnoticethata whole list below opens up sort of like a tree but it's more likeanexpanded list. If you don't know what you're doing and you clickonitagain because you thought nothing happened it would close the list.Now asighted coder wouldn't know this is a problem and the currentaccessframework doesn't take this into account. What should have happened isaopenevent should have been thrown even though focus didn't change thereshouldhave been a notification. Well it would have cost maybe 10 lines acode tomake this work but those lines are not easy to find and if youdon'tknow itneeds to be there well you're not going to go looking in theView.javaclassand the accessible_inf_event.java class to figure out how it worksbecauseyou don't know you need to. So how do we fix this? My answer is better thought out tool kits.Once thedevelopers can just use and it will be accessible. If they makeaccustomcontrol then don't do something for accessibility it will error.Willthisever happen. My answer is no but shrug I hope I am wrong. Ken From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of JayMacartySent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:29 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? One of the ideas I have been toying with for the java screen reader(eitherwe4java or jac) is providing a set of runtime annotations whichcouldbeused to enhance an application's accessibility by allowing the appdeveloperto put in self voicing annotations. There are differing schools ofthoughton self voicing. Some say it is good because the developer knowstheappbest and where self voicing would be helpful. On the other hand,putting inself voicing without providing the user a way of controling it orturningoff certain levels of it, takes away from the user's control overtheaccessibility feedback. If we put self voicing annotations into thejavascreen reader, a developer could add them in if desired but thebasescreenreader code base would still have control and could provide acommonmechanism for allowing the user to adjust the self voicingfeedback.----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Perry <mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:20 PM Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? I agree with Chris H.'s answer but I want to point out it's ourfaultit'snot already accessible. I wrote a simple talking java screenreaderthatdid very little but it made it so I could use Open Office.Crappilybut thebuttons talked and all and I did this in like 200 lines of code. Iknowthat code got passed around and I have since lost my copy but itcanbedone by replacing the access bridge with self voicing code. Itjusttakessomeone actually doing it. I am interested to see where Open Office goes now that it isOricals.I amworried about all Java stuff now that Orical is trying to Sewintostopping Android. It's a crazy world. Ken From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf OfKerneelsRoosSent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:30 AM To: programmingblind Subject: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? Hi List, Sorry if this question has been raised before and dealt with. Doesanyoneknow exactly why the Windows version of Open Office is only partly accessible with a screen reader, while the Linux version is streetsahead?Because Open Office is written in Java I assume the code base is98%identical across platforms. Is the problem mainly with the JAB(JavaAccessBridge) or with the screen readers themselves? Could the JAB not beopensourced so it can be updated to bridge Java, MSAA, UIA and anyotheraccessmiddle ware standard? NVDA works the best with Open Office, so I would assume it makesthebestuse of the JAB. Is there other Java to access technology middlewareincommon use today? I can remember a really long thread that in part had some info onJavaaccessibility, but I just can't justify going through all that topossiblyfind out more. Keep well -- Kerneels Roos Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 Skype: cornelis.roos The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets thecheese!__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virussignaturedatabase 5376 (20100818) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com-- Have a great day, Alex (msg sent from GMail website) mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind-- Have a great day, Alex (msg sent from GMail website) mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5377 (20100818) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5377 (20100818) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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