RE: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?)

  • From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:01:45 -0400

As I wrote earlier, Android was first developed over at Carnegie Mellon
University then passed along to google.  In that context, the Department
Of Justice will examine what happened over at Carnegie Mellon University
to find out if Federal grants funded Android development.  If that did
happen, they may decide to fight Oracle on the basis that Android is
owned by the tax payers since their money was used to fund that
development.  Research and development don't happen without funding so
Oracle may be entitled to a partial license ownership to the extent it
funds further research and development.  Licenses are only as good as
their provenance which is why S.C.O. Group has lost so consistently on
its claims to ownership of Unix, the Courts have made the determination
that their provenance stinks.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 16:21
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows
Accessible?)

Oracle is providing a product, the use of a piece of technology owned by
Oracle.  Whether Oracle's position that Google has violated the terms of
the Java licence they are accused of violating is valid or not, the use
of such technology, is a service (licence).

Part of what Oracle purchased when they purchased Sun was the rights to
Java, and any licencing revenue (including that sought through law).  I
imagine that Oracle did not spring this on Google (no facts), and that
Google has likely had the opportunity to pay Oracle a licencing fee for
some time.

The problem lies in the two organizations not being able to come to an
agreement on the terms of the licence under which Google feels entitled
to use and redistribute their Java based technology for free.  This is
where the legal system comes in, to arbitrate the opposing perspectives
from the two companies.


Everett Zufelt

http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

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On 2010-08-18, at 4:11 PM, Alex Midence wrote:


        I hope they lose big.  It's just plain greed is what it is.  I
have no
        problem with companies charging for a product or service that
they
        provided.  This, though ... Oracle is not providing a service
and is
        not providing a product, they're just trying to use the legal
system
        to feather their nest.
        
        Alex M
        
        On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
        <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
        

                Technically if I correctly remember my Business Law
studies in College I
                

                think what I've described is what the Court system in
the United States
                

                will find to be a pre-existing impossibility and on that
basis those
                

                courts will be wise to summarily dismiss legal action
Oracle may take to
                

                exploit its newly acquired cash cows.  Let's see what
the intelligence
                

                level is in the court system.
                


                -----Original Message-----
                

                From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                

                [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of DaShiell,
                

                Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
                

                Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:31
                

                To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                

                Subject: RE: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open
Office on Windows
                

                Accessible?)
                

                Importance: Low
                


                Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes.
The scenario for
                

                taking any G.P.L. Licensed project into patent trademark
copyright or
                

                registered status is and will remain very grim for
anyone trying to do
                

                it.  Let's just say Oracle gets injunctions and gets all
their cash cows
                

                in the barn.  For a little while life will be good for
Oracle but that
                

                at most will be a very short while.  What will happen in
the meantime is
                

                that some foreign Government without reciprocal
intellectual property
                

                agreements with the United States or ones that get
enforced differently
                

                in that foreign country sooner or later will decide that
work needs to
                

                continue on the formerly G.P.L. project so the first
thing they'll do is
                

                to release a new version of the software on the internet
with foreign
                

                language translation capabilities built in like they
were in the old
                

                days and the developers that were enjoined from working
on stuff that is
                

                now Oracle's will download that foreign version of the
software and be
                

                happily back at work in short order.  That work will
make a separate
                

                branch not under Oracle's control or ownership and the
courts in the
                

                United States will find it impossible in the end to
enforce any
                

                protections for Oracle's property.  Everybody gets a new
version of the
                

                software and development just keeps going on.
Integration of the
                

                necessary quantity of modifications to create the new
branch will be the
                

                first thing the developers take on and then they'll just
go on from
                

                there.  Linus Torvalds and Richard M. Stallman it turns
out were smarter
                

                than the whole court system; Congress, and all the
practicing lawyers in
                

                the United States when they started all of this out all
those years ago.
                

                Don't worry, firms that have more jingle than brains
simply aren't
                

                equipped to play in this league.
                


                -----Original Message-----
                

                From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                

                [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Alex Hall
                

                Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:12
                

                To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                

                Subject: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on
Windows
                

                Accessible?)
                


                True. This move could scare plenty of people away from
using, or
                

                continuing to use, Java for commercial applications, and
there goes
                

                its usefulness to future developers and companies...
                


                On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
                

                <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
                

                        To the best of my knowledge, Android is G.P.L.
and wasn't even
                        

                        originally developed by or at google.  Where the
development started
                        

                was
                

                        at Carnegie Mellon University and that operating
system was made
                        

                        available to google by the University.  Very
likely the University
                        

                        didn't charge for the operating system so that
along with the G.P.L.
                        

                        licensing could substantially weaken Oracle's
case.  Another
                        

                        consideration here is that if Oracle starts
demanding licensing fees
                        

                        from every java application on the planet,
that'll shut the
                        

                development
                

                        off hard fast and permanently of new
technologies done with java.  The
                        

                        solaris operating system which Oracle bought is
a true security turkey
                        

                        having more problems than Linux even to this
day.  I know that because
                        

                        of other contacts I have at work and they've had
occasion to use it
                        

                and
                

                        clean up too many of its messes.  That won't be
a cash cow for that
                        

                        reason, at least not for a while and several
major releases.  Just
                        

                        because a predatory firm has jingle in its
pocket doesn't necessarily
                        

                        entitle it to do strip mining on acquired
resources but in Oracle's
                        

                        specific case, the acquisition crew didn't do
sufficient due diligence
                        

                        and had more jingle in their pockets than
operational brains in their
                        

                        heads.  So far as I'm concerned, couldn't happen
to more nicer and
                        

                        deserving people.
                        


                        -----Original Message-----
                        

                        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                        

                        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Don Marang
                        

                        Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 13:19
                        

                        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                        

                        Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows
Accessible?
                        


                        Now that is a rational angle I had not
considered.  Unfortunately,
                        

                        Oracle
                        

                        seems to think they bought a cash cow.  It is
possible they might
                        

                        require
                        

                        paid licences for Java used anywhere.  I have
not checked the license
                        

                        terms
                        

                        that Sun has placed on this software.  I assumed
that it was a GPL
                        

                Open
                

                        Source type.  Does anyone know?  It seems kind
of strange to change
                        

                        license
                        

                        terms after years and years.
                        


                        Don Marang
                        


                        There is just so much stuff in the world that,
to me, is devoid of any
                        

                        real
                        

                        substance, value, and content that I just try to
make sure that I am
                        

                        working
                        

                        on things that matter.
                        

                        Dean Kamen
                        



        
--------------------------------------------------
                        

                        From: "DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1,
26"
                        

                        <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
                        

                        Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:45 PM
                        

                        To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
                        

                        Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows
Accessible?
                        


                                Well, maybe Oracle can make a case.
What I'd like to see the Courts
                                

                        do
                        

                                is to give Oracle a provisional victory
such that for as long as
                                

                        Oracle
                        

                                actively supports Android software
development they can continue to
                                

                                collect money.  When they discontinue
support, their time to collect
                                

                                money from Android would also properly
end.  Now if such a precedent
                                

                        as
                        

                                that were extended to cover the rest of
the software industry, I
                                

                think
                

                                we would witness the end of the days
when titles were being added to
                                

                        the
                        

                                abandonware list.  Also, in that way a
collection right comes with a
                                

                                software development support
responsibility.
                                


                                -----Original Message-----
                                

                                From:
programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                

        
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall
                                

                                Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:21
                                

                                To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                

                                Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on
Windows Accessible?
                                


                                Well, Oracle bought Sun Micro Systems,
so they bought Java along with
                                

                                everything else owned by Sun. Now, since
Android is written in Java
                                

                                and runs atop a virtual machine, Oracle
is trying to say that they
                                

                are
                

                                entitled to some of the money made by
Android since it is written in
                                

                a
                

                                language Oracle now owns.
                                


                                On 8/18/10, katherine Moss
<plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
                                

                                        Holy moly!  What's going on
there?  What's Oracle suing Google for?
                                        




                                        From:
programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                        

        
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don
                                        

                        Marang
                        

                                        Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010
2:38 AM
                                        

                                        To:
programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                        

                                        Subject: Re: Why isn't Open
Office on Windows Accessible?
                                        




                                        Is all Android app development
based on Google's version of Java?
                                        

                        Are
                        

                                there
                                

                                        reasonable resources I can point
developers to for Android
                                        

                                accessibility
                                

                                        implementation?  As a potential
user / tinkerer, I would like to
                                        

                know
                

                                as
                                

                                        well and hopefully be in a
better position to provide positive
                                        

                                feedback.
                                




                                        Will the threatened Oracle
lawsuit of Google over Java damage
                                        

                                Android's
                                

                                        success?  Will it destroy
inovation and Open Source if they win?
                                        


                                        Don Marang
                                        




                                        There is just so much stuff in
the world that, to me, is devoid of
                                        

                        any
                        

                                real
                                

                                        substance, value, and content
that I just try to make sure that I am
                                        

                                working
                                

                                        on things that matter.
                                        

                                        Dean Kamen
                                        




                                        From: Ken Perry
<mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
                                        


                                        Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010
7:52 PM
                                        


                                        To:
programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                        


                                        Subject: RE: Why isn't Open
Office on Windows Accessible?
                                        




                                        This is sort of what Android is
doing even if they have not went far
                                        

                                enough
                                

                                        yet.  They have an accessible
event that is thrown by all controls
                                        

                                excepting
                                

                                        static and some other problems
but at any rate if you use basic
                                        

                                controls you
                                

                                        get the accessible events if
however you want to make a custom
                                        

                action
                

                                you
                                

                                        can also throw accessible events
that the screen readers like talk
                                        

                                back will
                                

                                        catch and speak or the
accessibility tools like kick back and sound
                                        

                                back can
                                

                                        catch and do something with.  So
its part developer putting in
                                        

                        special
                        

                                        access and part developer using
the controls that are already
                                        

                                accessible.
                                

                                        The unfortunate problem is what
you get is only part accessible in
                                        

                                most
                                

                                        cases.  I am not saying Android
is not accessible I am saying what
                                        

                                Android
                                

                                        is once again proving is if you
leave it up to the developer at all
                                        

                        us
                        

                                as
                                

                                        developers are too lazy to do
it.  Take me for example if I as a
                                        

                        blind
                        

                                coder
                                

                                        wrote a scrabble game I would
not think of special cases for high
                                        

                                resolution
                                

                                        graphic cards to have spinning
tiles or something to make the game
                                        

                                more
                                

                                        interesting for a sited player.
I would be shooting for my target
                                        

                                audience.
                                

                                        The reverse is even worse not
only are sighted programmers used to
                                        

                                rapid
                                

                                        development and anything that
slows them down out, but they wouldn't
                                        

                                know
                                

                                        what we need to have sent to
make something accessible unless we
                                        

                        point
                        

                                it
                                

                                        out.  Here is an example under
the Android platform.  The default
                                        

                                media
                                

                                        player has very accessible
artist and song lists. But when you open
                                        

                                them
                                

                                        they say nothing for example
When you open the media layer you are
                                        

                on
                

                                a tab
                                

                                        screen and when you arrow left
and right it says artist albums and
                                        

                                songs.
                                

                                        If you click on artist nothing
happens or at least as a blind person
                                        

                                hears
                                

                                        it nothing at all happens.  If
however you are sighted you will
                                        

                        notice
                        

                                that
                                

                                        a whole list below opens up sort
of like a tree but it's more like
                                        

                an
                

                                        expanded list.  If you don't
know what you're doing and you click on
                                        

                                it
                                

                                        again because you thought
nothing happened it would close the list.
                                        

                                Now a
                                

                                        sighted coder wouldn't know this
is a problem and the current access
                                        

                                frame
                                

                                        work doesn't take this into
account.  What should have happened is a
                                        

                                open
                                

                                        event should have been thrown
even though focus didn't change there
                                        

                                should
                                

                                        have been a notification.  Well
it would have cost maybe 10 lines a
                                        

                                code to
                                

                                        make this work but those lines
are not easy to find and if you don't
                                        

                                know it
                                

                                        needs to be there well you're
not going to go looking in the
                                        

                        View.java
                        

                                class
                                

                                        and the
accessible_inf_event.java class to figure out how it works
                                        

                                because
                                

                                        you don't know you need to.
                                        




                                        So how do we fix this?  My
answer is better thought out tool kits.
                                        

                                Once the
                                

                                        developers can just use and it
will be accessible.  If they make
                                        

                                accustom
                                

                                        control then don't do something
for accessibility it will error.
                                        

                        Will
                        

                                this
                                

                                        ever happen.  My answer is no
but shrug I hope I am wrong.
                                        




                                        Ken
                                        




                                        From:
programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                        

        
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay
                                        

                                Macarty
                                

                                        Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010
1:29 AM
                                        

                                        To:
programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                        

                                        Subject: Re: Why isn't Open
Office on Windows Accessible?
                                        




                                        One of the ideas I have been
toying with for the java screen reader
                                        

                                (either
                                

                                        we4java or jac) is providing a
set of runtime annotations which
                                        

                could
                

                                be
                                

                                        used to enhance an application's
accessibility by allowing the app
                                        

                                developer
                                

                                        to put in self voicing
annotations. There are differing schools of
                                        

                                thought
                                

                                        on self voicing. Some say it is
good because the developer knows the
                                        

                                app
                                

                                        best and where self voicing
would be helpful. On the other hand,
                                        

                                putting in
                                

                                        self voicing without providing
the user a way of controling it or
                                        

                                turning
                                

                                        off certain levels of it, takes
away from the user's control over
                                        

                the
                

                                        accessibility feedback. If we
put self voicing annotations into the
                                        

                                java
                                

                                        screen reader, a developer could
add them in if desired but the base
                                        

                                screen
                                

                                        reader code base would still
have control and could provide a common
                                        

                                        mechanism for allowing the user
to adjust the self voicing feedback.
                                        




                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        


                                        From: Ken Perry
<mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
                                        


                                        To:
programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                        


                                        Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010
5:20 PM
                                        


                                        Subject: RE: Why isn't Open
Office on Windows Accessible?
                                        




                                        I agree with Chris H.'s answer
but I want to point out it's our
                                        

                fault
                

                                it's
                                

                                        not already accessible.  I wrote
a simple talking java screen reader
                                        

                                that
                                

                                        did very little but it made it
so I could use  Open Office. Crappily
                                        

                                but the
                                

                                        buttons talked and all and I did
this in like 200 lines of code.  I
                                        

                                know
                                

                                        that code got passed around and
I have since lost my copy but it
                                        

                can
                

                                be
                                

                                        done by replacing the access
bridge with self voicing code.  It just
                                        

                                takes
                                

                                        someone actually doing it.
                                        




                                        I am interested to see where
Open Office goes now that it is
                                        

                Oricals.
                

                                I am
                                

                                        worried about all Java stuff now
that Orical is trying to Sew Google
                                        

                                into
                                

                                        stopping Android.  It's a crazy
world.
                                        




                                        Ken
                                        


                                        From:
programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                        

        
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
                                        

                                Roos
                                

                                        Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010
3:30 AM
                                        

                                        To: programmingblind
                                        

                                        Subject: Why isn't Open Office
on Windows Accessible?
                                        




                                        Hi List,
                                        


                                        Sorry if this question has been
raised before and dealt with. Does
                                        

                                anyone
                                

                                        know exactly why the Windows
version of Open Office is only partly
                                        

                                        accessible with a screen reader,
while the Linux version is streets
                                        

                                ahead?
                                

                                        Because Open Office is written
in Java I assume the code base is 98%
                                        

                                        identical across platforms. Is
the problem mainly with the JAB (Java
                                        

                                Access
                                

                                        Bridge) or with the screen
readers themselves? Could the JAB not be
                                        

                                open
                                

                                        sourced so it can be updated to
bridge Java, MSAA, UIA and any other
                                        

                                access
                                

                                        middle ware standard?
                                        


                                        NVDA works the best with Open
Office, so I would assume it makes the
                                        

                                best
                                

                                        use of the JAB. Is there other
Java to access technology middle ware
                                        

                                in
                                

                                        common use today?
                                        


                                        I can remember a really long
thread that in part had some info on
                                        

                        Java
                        

                                        accessibility, but I just can't
justify going through all that to
                                        

                                possibly
                                

                                        find out more.
                                        


                                        Keep well
                                        



                                        --
                                        

                                        Kerneels Roos
                                        

                                        Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
                                        

                                        Skype: cornelis.roos
                                        


                                        The early bird may get the worm,
but the second mouse gets the
                                        

                        cheese!
                        






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