Re: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?)

  • From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:11:34 -0500

I hope they lose big.  It's just plain greed is what it is.  I have no
problem with companies charging for a product or service that they
provided.  This, though ... Oracle is not providing a service and is
not providing a product, they're just trying to use the legal system
to feather their nest.

Alex M

On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
<jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Technically if I correctly remember my Business Law studies in College I
> think what I've described is what the Court system in the United States
> will find to be a pre-existing impossibility and on that basis those
> courts will be wise to summarily dismiss legal action Oracle may take to
> exploit its newly acquired cash cows.  Let's see what the intelligence
> level is in the court system.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
> Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:31
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows
> Accessible?)
> Importance: Low
>
> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes.  The scenario for
> taking any G.P.L. Licensed project into patent trademark copyright or
> registered status is and will remain very grim for anyone trying to do
> it.  Let's just say Oracle gets injunctions and gets all their cash cows
> in the barn.  For a little while life will be good for Oracle but that
> at most will be a very short while.  What will happen in the meantime is
> that some foreign Government without reciprocal intellectual property
> agreements with the United States or ones that get enforced differently
> in that foreign country sooner or later will decide that work needs to
> continue on the formerly G.P.L. project so the first thing they'll do is
> to release a new version of the software on the internet with foreign
> language translation capabilities built in like they were in the old
> days and the developers that were enjoined from working on stuff that is
> now Oracle's will download that foreign version of the software and be
> happily back at work in short order.  That work will make a separate
> branch not under Oracle's control or ownership and the courts in the
> United States will find it impossible in the end to enforce any
> protections for Oracle's property.  Everybody gets a new version of the
> software and development just keeps going on.  Integration of the
> necessary quantity of modifications to create the new branch will be the
> first thing the developers take on and then they'll just go on from
> there.  Linus Torvalds and Richard M. Stallman it turns out were smarter
> than the whole court system; Congress, and all the practicing lawyers in
> the United States when they started all of this out all those years ago.
> Don't worry, firms that have more jingle than brains simply aren't
> equipped to play in this league.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:12
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows
> Accessible?)
>
> True. This move could scare plenty of people away from using, or
> continuing to use, Java for commercial applications, and there goes
> its usefulness to future developers and companies...
>
> On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> To the best of my knowledge, Android is G.P.L. and wasn't even
>> originally developed by or at google.  Where the development started
> was
>> at Carnegie Mellon University and that operating system was made
>> available to google by the University.  Very likely the University
>> didn't charge for the operating system so that along with the G.P.L.
>> licensing could substantially weaken Oracle's case.  Another
>> consideration here is that if Oracle starts demanding licensing fees
>> from every java application on the planet, that'll shut the
> development
>> off hard fast and permanently of new technologies done with java.  The
>> solaris operating system which Oracle bought is a true security turkey
>> having more problems than Linux even to this day.  I know that because
>> of other contacts I have at work and they've had occasion to use it
> and
>> clean up too many of its messes.  That won't be a cash cow for that
>> reason, at least not for a while and several major releases.  Just
>> because a predatory firm has jingle in its pocket doesn't necessarily
>> entitle it to do strip mining on acquired resources but in Oracle's
>> specific case, the acquisition crew didn't do sufficient due diligence
>> and had more jingle in their pockets than operational brains in their
>> heads.  So far as I'm concerned, couldn't happen to more nicer and
>> deserving people.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don Marang
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 13:19
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?
>>
>> Now that is a rational angle I had not considered.  Unfortunately,
>> Oracle
>> seems to think they bought a cash cow.  It is possible they might
>> require
>> paid licences for Java used anywhere.  I have not checked the license
>> terms
>> that Sun has placed on this software.  I assumed that it was a GPL
> Open
>> Source type.  Does anyone know?  It seems kind of strange to change
>> license
>> terms after years and years.
>>
>> Don Marang
>>
>> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any
>> real
>> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am
>> working
>> on things that matter.
>> Dean Kamen
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26"
>> <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:45 PM
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?
>>
>>> Well, maybe Oracle can make a case.  What I'd like to see the Courts
>> do
>>> is to give Oracle a provisional victory such that for as long as
>> Oracle
>>> actively supports Android software development they can continue to
>>> collect money.  When they discontinue support, their time to collect
>>> money from Android would also properly end.  Now if such a precedent
>> as
>>> that were extended to cover the rest of the software industry, I
> think
>>> we would witness the end of the days when titles were being added to
>> the
>>> abandonware list.  Also, in that way a collection right comes with a
>>> software development support responsibility.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:21
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?
>>>
>>> Well, Oracle bought Sun Micro Systems, so they bought Java along with
>>> everything else owned by Sun. Now, since Android is written in Java
>>> and runs atop a virtual machine, Oracle is trying to say that they
> are
>>> entitled to some of the money made by Android since it is written in
> a
>>> language Oracle now owns.
>>>
>>> On 8/18/10, katherine Moss <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Holy moly!  What's going on there?  What's Oracle suing Google for?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don
>> Marang
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:38 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is all Android app development based on Google's version of Java?
>> Are
>>> there
>>>> reasonable resources I can point developers to for Android
>>> accessibility
>>>> implementation?  As a potential user / tinkerer, I would like to
> know
>>> as
>>>> well and hopefully be in a better position to provide positive
>>> feedback.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Will the threatened Oracle lawsuit of Google over Java damage
>>> Android's
>>>> success?  Will it destroy inovation and Open Source if they win?
>>>>
>>>> Don Marang
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of
>> any
>>> real
>>>> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am
>>> working
>>>> on things that matter.
>>>> Dean Kamen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Ken Perry <mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:52 PM
>>>>
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is sort of what Android is doing even if they have not went far
>>> enough
>>>> yet.  They have an accessible event that is thrown by all controls
>>> excepting
>>>> static and some other problems but at any rate if you use basic
>>> controls you
>>>> get the accessible events if however you want to make a custom
> action
>>> you
>>>> can also throw accessible events that the screen readers like talk
>>> back will
>>>> catch and speak or the accessibility tools like kick back and sound
>>> back can
>>>> catch and do something with.  So its part developer putting in
>> special
>>>> access and part developer using the controls that are already
>>> accessible.
>>>> The unfortunate problem is what you get is only part accessible in
>>> most
>>>> cases.  I am not saying Android is not accessible I am saying what
>>> Android
>>>> is once again proving is if you leave it up to the developer at all
>> us
>>> as
>>>> developers are too lazy to do it.  Take me for example if I as a
>> blind
>>> coder
>>>> wrote a scrabble game I would not think of special cases for high
>>> resolution
>>>> graphic cards to have spinning tiles or something to make the game
>>> more
>>>> interesting for a sited player.  I would be shooting for my target
>>> audience.
>>>> The reverse is even worse not only are sighted programmers used to
>>> rapid
>>>> development and anything that slows them down out, but they wouldn't
>>> know
>>>> what we need to have sent to make something accessible unless we
>> point
>>> it
>>>> out.  Here is an example under the Android platform.  The default
>>> media
>>>> player has very accessible artist and song lists. But when you open
>>> them
>>>> they say nothing for example When you open the media layer you are
> on
>>> a tab
>>>> screen and when you arrow left and right it says artist albums and
>>> songs.
>>>> If you click on artist nothing happens or at least as a blind person
>>> hears
>>>> it nothing at all happens.  If however you are sighted you will
>> notice
>>> that
>>>> a whole list below opens up sort of like a tree but it's more like
> an
>>>> expanded list.  If you don't know what you're doing and you click on
>>> it
>>>> again because you thought nothing happened it would close the list.
>>> Now a
>>>> sighted coder wouldn't know this is a problem and the current access
>>> frame
>>>> work doesn't take this into account.  What should have happened is a
>>> open
>>>> event should have been thrown even though focus didn't change there
>>> should
>>>> have been a notification.  Well it would have cost maybe 10 lines a
>>> code to
>>>> make this work but those lines are not easy to find and if you don't
>>> know it
>>>> needs to be there well you're not going to go looking in the
>> View.java
>>> class
>>>> and the accessible_inf_event.java class to figure out how it works
>>> because
>>>> you don't know you need to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So how do we fix this?  My answer is better thought out tool kits.
>>> Once the
>>>> developers can just use and it will be accessible.  If they make
>>> accustom
>>>> control then don't do something for accessibility it will error.
>> Will
>>> this
>>>> ever happen.  My answer is no but shrug I hope I am wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay
>>> Macarty
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:29 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One of the ideas I have been toying with for the java screen reader
>>> (either
>>>> we4java or jac) is providing a set of runtime annotations which
> could
>>> be
>>>> used to enhance an application's accessibility by allowing the app
>>> developer
>>>> to put in self voicing annotations. There are differing schools of
>>> thought
>>>> on self voicing. Some say it is good because the developer knows the
>>> app
>>>> best and where self voicing would be helpful. On the other hand,
>>> putting in
>>>> self voicing without providing the user a way of controling it or
>>> turning
>>>> off certain levels of it, takes away from the user's control over
> the
>>>> accessibility feedback. If we put self voicing annotations into the
>>> java
>>>> screen reader, a developer could add them in if desired but the base
>>> screen
>>>> reader code base would still have control and could provide a common
>>>> mechanism for allowing the user to adjust the self voicing feedback.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Ken Perry <mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:20 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Chris H.'s answer but I want to point out it's our
> fault
>>> it's
>>>> not already accessible.  I wrote a simple talking java screen reader
>>> that
>>>> did very little but it made it so I could use  Open Office. Crappily
>>> but the
>>>> buttons talked and all and I did this in like 200 lines of code.  I
>>> know
>>>> that code got passed around and I have since lost my copy but it
> can
>>> be
>>>> done by replacing the access bridge with self voicing code.  It just
>>> takes
>>>> someone actually doing it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am interested to see where Open Office goes now that it is
> Oricals.
>>> I am
>>>> worried about all Java stuff now that Orical is trying to Sew Google
>>> into
>>>> stopping Android.  It's a crazy world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
>>> Roos
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:30 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind
>>>> Subject: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi List,
>>>>
>>>> Sorry if this question has been raised before and dealt with. Does
>>> anyone
>>>> know exactly why the Windows version of Open Office is only partly
>>>> accessible with a screen reader, while the Linux version is streets
>>> ahead?
>>>> Because Open Office is written in Java I assume the code base is 98%
>>>> identical across platforms. Is the problem mainly with the JAB (Java
>>> Access
>>>> Bridge) or with the screen readers themselves? Could the JAB not be
>>> open
>>>> sourced so it can be updated to bridge Java, MSAA, UIA and any other
>>> access
>>>> middle ware standard?
>>>>
>>>> NVDA works the best with Open Office, so I would assume it makes the
>>> best
>>>> use of the JAB. Is there other Java to access technology middle ware
>>> in
>>>> common use today?
>>>>
>>>> I can remember a really long thread that in part had some info on
>> Java
>>>> accessibility, but I just can't justify going through all that to
>>> possibly
>>>> find out more.
>>>>
>>>> Keep well
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>
>>>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
>> cheese!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature
>>>> database 5376 (20100818) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Have a great day,
>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
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>
>
> --
> Have a great day,
> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
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