I hope they lose big. It's just plain greed is what it is. I have no problem with companies charging for a product or service that they provided. This, though ... Oracle is not providing a service and is not providing a product, they're just trying to use the legal system to feather their nest. Alex M On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Technically if I correctly remember my Business Law studies in College I > think what I've described is what the Court system in the United States > will find to be a pre-existing impossibility and on that basis those > courts will be wise to summarily dismiss legal action Oracle may take to > exploit its newly acquired cash cows. Let's see what the intelligence > level is in the court system. > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell, > Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:31 > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: RE: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows > Accessible?) > Importance: Low > > Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes. The scenario for > taking any G.P.L. Licensed project into patent trademark copyright or > registered status is and will remain very grim for anyone trying to do > it. Let's just say Oracle gets injunctions and gets all their cash cows > in the barn. For a little while life will be good for Oracle but that > at most will be a very short while. What will happen in the meantime is > that some foreign Government without reciprocal intellectual property > agreements with the United States or ones that get enforced differently > in that foreign country sooner or later will decide that work needs to > continue on the formerly G.P.L. project so the first thing they'll do is > to release a new version of the software on the internet with foreign > language translation capabilities built in like they were in the old > days and the developers that were enjoined from working on stuff that is > now Oracle's will download that foreign version of the software and be > happily back at work in short order. That work will make a separate > branch not under Oracle's control or ownership and the courts in the > United States will find it impossible in the end to enforce any > protections for Oracle's property. Everybody gets a new version of the > software and development just keeps going on. Integration of the > necessary quantity of modifications to create the new branch will be the > first thing the developers take on and then they'll just go on from > there. Linus Torvalds and Richard M. Stallman it turns out were smarter > than the whole court system; Congress, and all the practicing lawyers in > the United States when they started all of this out all those years ago. > Don't worry, firms that have more jingle than brains simply aren't > equipped to play in this league. > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 14:12 > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Oracle vs. Google (was Why isn't Open Office on Windows > Accessible?) > > True. This move could scare plenty of people away from using, or > continuing to use, Java for commercial applications, and there goes > its usefulness to future developers and companies... > > On 8/18/10, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 > <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >> To the best of my knowledge, Android is G.P.L. and wasn't even >> originally developed by or at google. Where the development started > was >> at Carnegie Mellon University and that operating system was made >> available to google by the University. Very likely the University >> didn't charge for the operating system so that along with the G.P.L. >> licensing could substantially weaken Oracle's case. Another >> consideration here is that if Oracle starts demanding licensing fees >> from every java application on the planet, that'll shut the > development >> off hard fast and permanently of new technologies done with java. The >> solaris operating system which Oracle bought is a true security turkey >> having more problems than Linux even to this day. I know that because >> of other contacts I have at work and they've had occasion to use it > and >> clean up too many of its messes. That won't be a cash cow for that >> reason, at least not for a while and several major releases. Just >> because a predatory firm has jingle in its pocket doesn't necessarily >> entitle it to do strip mining on acquired resources but in Oracle's >> specific case, the acquisition crew didn't do sufficient due diligence >> and had more jingle in their pockets than operational brains in their >> heads. So far as I'm concerned, couldn't happen to more nicer and >> deserving people. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don Marang >> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 13:19 >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? >> >> Now that is a rational angle I had not considered. Unfortunately, >> Oracle >> seems to think they bought a cash cow. It is possible they might >> require >> paid licences for Java used anywhere. I have not checked the license >> terms >> that Sun has placed on this software. I assumed that it was a GPL > Open >> Source type. Does anyone know? It seems kind of strange to change >> license >> terms after years and years. >> >> Don Marang >> >> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any >> real >> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am >> working >> on things that matter. >> Dean Kamen >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" >> <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:45 PM >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? >> >>> Well, maybe Oracle can make a case. What I'd like to see the Courts >> do >>> is to give Oracle a provisional victory such that for as long as >> Oracle >>> actively supports Android software development they can continue to >>> collect money. When they discontinue support, their time to collect >>> money from Android would also properly end. Now if such a precedent >> as >>> that were extended to cover the rest of the software industry, I > think >>> we would witness the end of the days when titles were being added to >> the >>> abandonware list. Also, in that way a collection right comes with a >>> software development support responsibility. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:21 >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? >>> >>> Well, Oracle bought Sun Micro Systems, so they bought Java along with >>> everything else owned by Sun. Now, since Android is written in Java >>> and runs atop a virtual machine, Oracle is trying to say that they > are >>> entitled to some of the money made by Android since it is written in > a >>> language Oracle now owns. >>> >>> On 8/18/10, katherine Moss <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> Holy moly! What's going on there? What's Oracle suing Google for? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don >> Marang >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:38 AM >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is all Android app development based on Google's version of Java? >> Are >>> there >>>> reasonable resources I can point developers to for Android >>> accessibility >>>> implementation? As a potential user / tinkerer, I would like to > know >>> as >>>> well and hopefully be in a better position to provide positive >>> feedback. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Will the threatened Oracle lawsuit of Google over Java damage >>> Android's >>>> success? Will it destroy inovation and Open Source if they win? >>>> >>>> Don Marang >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of >> any >>> real >>>> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am >>> working >>>> on things that matter. >>>> Dean Kamen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Ken Perry <mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:52 PM >>>> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> >>>> Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This is sort of what Android is doing even if they have not went far >>> enough >>>> yet. They have an accessible event that is thrown by all controls >>> excepting >>>> static and some other problems but at any rate if you use basic >>> controls you >>>> get the accessible events if however you want to make a custom > action >>> you >>>> can also throw accessible events that the screen readers like talk >>> back will >>>> catch and speak or the accessibility tools like kick back and sound >>> back can >>>> catch and do something with. So its part developer putting in >> special >>>> access and part developer using the controls that are already >>> accessible. >>>> The unfortunate problem is what you get is only part accessible in >>> most >>>> cases. I am not saying Android is not accessible I am saying what >>> Android >>>> is once again proving is if you leave it up to the developer at all >> us >>> as >>>> developers are too lazy to do it. Take me for example if I as a >> blind >>> coder >>>> wrote a scrabble game I would not think of special cases for high >>> resolution >>>> graphic cards to have spinning tiles or something to make the game >>> more >>>> interesting for a sited player. I would be shooting for my target >>> audience. >>>> The reverse is even worse not only are sighted programmers used to >>> rapid >>>> development and anything that slows them down out, but they wouldn't >>> know >>>> what we need to have sent to make something accessible unless we >> point >>> it >>>> out. Here is an example under the Android platform. The default >>> media >>>> player has very accessible artist and song lists. But when you open >>> them >>>> they say nothing for example When you open the media layer you are > on >>> a tab >>>> screen and when you arrow left and right it says artist albums and >>> songs. >>>> If you click on artist nothing happens or at least as a blind person >>> hears >>>> it nothing at all happens. If however you are sighted you will >> notice >>> that >>>> a whole list below opens up sort of like a tree but it's more like > an >>>> expanded list. If you don't know what you're doing and you click on >>> it >>>> again because you thought nothing happened it would close the list. >>> Now a >>>> sighted coder wouldn't know this is a problem and the current access >>> frame >>>> work doesn't take this into account. What should have happened is a >>> open >>>> event should have been thrown even though focus didn't change there >>> should >>>> have been a notification. Well it would have cost maybe 10 lines a >>> code to >>>> make this work but those lines are not easy to find and if you don't >>> know it >>>> needs to be there well you're not going to go looking in the >> View.java >>> class >>>> and the accessible_inf_event.java class to figure out how it works >>> because >>>> you don't know you need to. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So how do we fix this? My answer is better thought out tool kits. >>> Once the >>>> developers can just use and it will be accessible. If they make >>> accustom >>>> control then don't do something for accessibility it will error. >> Will >>> this >>>> ever happen. My answer is no but shrug I hope I am wrong. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ken >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay >>> Macarty >>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:29 AM >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: Re: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> One of the ideas I have been toying with for the java screen reader >>> (either >>>> we4java or jac) is providing a set of runtime annotations which > could >>> be >>>> used to enhance an application's accessibility by allowing the app >>> developer >>>> to put in self voicing annotations. There are differing schools of >>> thought >>>> on self voicing. Some say it is good because the developer knows the >>> app >>>> best and where self voicing would be helpful. On the other hand, >>> putting in >>>> self voicing without providing the user a way of controling it or >>> turning >>>> off certain levels of it, takes away from the user's control over > the >>>> accessibility feedback. If we put self voicing annotations into the >>> java >>>> screen reader, a developer could add them in if desired but the base >>> screen >>>> reader code base would still have control and could provide a common >>>> mechanism for allowing the user to adjust the self voicing feedback. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: Ken Perry <mailto:whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:20 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: RE: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I agree with Chris H.'s answer but I want to point out it's our > fault >>> it's >>>> not already accessible. I wrote a simple talking java screen reader >>> that >>>> did very little but it made it so I could use Open Office. Crappily >>> but the >>>> buttons talked and all and I did this in like 200 lines of code. I >>> know >>>> that code got passed around and I have since lost my copy but it > can >>> be >>>> done by replacing the access bridge with self voicing code. It just >>> takes >>>> someone actually doing it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am interested to see where Open Office goes now that it is > Oricals. >>> I am >>>> worried about all Java stuff now that Orical is trying to Sew Google >>> into >>>> stopping Android. It's a crazy world. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ken >>>> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels >>> Roos >>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:30 AM >>>> To: programmingblind >>>> Subject: Why isn't Open Office on Windows Accessible? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi List, >>>> >>>> Sorry if this question has been raised before and dealt with. Does >>> anyone >>>> know exactly why the Windows version of Open Office is only partly >>>> accessible with a screen reader, while the Linux version is streets >>> ahead? >>>> Because Open Office is written in Java I assume the code base is 98% >>>> identical across platforms. Is the problem mainly with the JAB (Java >>> Access >>>> Bridge) or with the screen readers themselves? Could the JAB not be >>> open >>>> sourced so it can be updated to bridge Java, MSAA, UIA and any other >>> access >>>> middle ware standard? >>>> >>>> NVDA works the best with Open Office, so I would assume it makes the >>> best >>>> use of the JAB. Is there other Java to access technology middle ware >>> in >>>> common use today? >>>> >>>> I can remember a really long thread that in part had some info on >> Java >>>> accessibility, but I just can't justify going through all that to >>> possibly >>>> find out more. >>>> >>>> Keep well >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kerneels Roos >>>> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998 >>>> Skype: cornelis.roos >>>> >>>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the >> cheese! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>>> database 5376 (20100818) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Have a great day, >>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website) >>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> > > > -- > Have a great day, > Alex (msg sent from GMail website) > mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind