RE: .Net Framework Documentation
- From: Øyvind Lode <oyvind.lode@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 20:17:41 +0200
What do you mean?
You have already sent 3 e-mails to the list asking for the address.
So you should know by now that the address to post is:
programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
If you are trying to contact the moderator I think there is a option for
that at the Programming Blind home page.
See the link at the bottom of every message to get that address.
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ALBERT A
SCHWARTZBERG
Sent: 8. august 2010 18:42
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
What is the Email address of where to send any questions I may have for
blind programming free list? Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
> Hi Rick, I'll just interject here if you don't mind. The issue again
> is that the web as it stands has a very poor keyboard model; the part
> of accessibility that often gets forgotten is that not only do we need
> a DOM that exposes all information about a page programmatically for
> screen readers to consume, but we need a consistent way of managing
> focus at the framework level. This would include supporting
> selection, containers (and bounded focus), linear navigation, text
> traversal, etc. It's not clear what this would look like since the
> web is sort of a weird mix between application and document, so there
> are times when you want to feel like you are moving around a caret
> while other times you want to "tab" from control to control; some of
> these controls should be containers such as tables in which you can
> arrow up/down. This simply hasn't gotten much attention since the
> majority of users use a pointing device (mouse, trackpad, touch,
> etc.).
>
> Think of the Windows paradigm; you as a screen reader user basically
> play within a sandbox of windows; within each window, you can tab
> around and you have common UI elements. This vocabulary is well
> defined and consistent. However, on the web, there isn't this type of
> order. AxsJAX imposes this type of order. VoiceOver tries to group
> DOM elements based on visual layout or DOM hierarchy relationships.
> However, neither fits to any standard agreed upon by W3C. Thus, the
> screen reader venders hack up their own proprietary solutions and
> refuse to change when the web evolves (besides making incremental
> feature updates to try and workaround new web technologies).
> Microsoft / others basically then have no recourse to fix anything
> since any fix would involve breaking existing solutions (look at the
> very slow adoption of UI Automation). I mean, Jaws is still using
> win32 to get lots of its on-screen information when they could very
> well switch much of their hooks to MSAA.
>
>
>
>
> On 8/8/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Hi Ken: Is it an inherrant problem with the Web Accessibility hooks or is
>> it
>> a problem with the Web Designers who layout Web Pages? I know from
>> developing a couple of pages in VWD that I can make a page accessible
>> with
>> some extra work and by not using some canned cUI controls but I don't
>> think
>> most sighted designers, especially overseas, worry about that too much.
>> Even
>> the thousands of programmers at Google worry about accessibility after
>> the
>> fact when they put up a new application and that makes adding
>> accessibility
>> dificult and sometimes impossible without crazy modifications. For
>> example,
>> if the list of links in a mail program were inside a DropDown list you
>> could
>> have the ability to select a group, or all, the links using the cursor or
>> the mouse and then hit a button or hot key to delete, copy or otherwise
>> work
>> with the selected group. That would be as fast as anything I can think of
>> for that feature. I haven't done much with dynamic links and data but I
>> should think that once they are in the dom they should be available for
>> that
>> type of "desktop" actionability. I am waiting until the guys at GW Micro
>> come out with their COM interface to see how they handle things. My
>> biggest
>> concern is exactly what you have described. Limited accessibility ten
>> times
>> slower than sighted access is still accessibility achieved legally I
>> guess.
>> I am not so sure about not having Government / Industry based standards
>> enforcable by law and eliminating the accessibility foundation diferences
>> between major players like IBM and Microsoft when it comes to the
>> technical
>> hooks. One standard instead of IAccessible2 and, or, UIA and or other
>> versions of Web Accessibility hooking models. As it now stands a screen
>> reader has to handle the very complex interfaces for web apps and desktop
>> apps, differing Operating System requirements, Diferent methods of
>> dexposing
>> Accessibility information and all the variants of Website Accessibility
>> including JavaScript, CSS and Dynamic Html, AVI and Animation and all
>> that
>> jazz.
>> IBM won't agree with Microsoft who won't agree with Google and so on. So
>> we
>> get Research Project after Research Project to describe the best
>> Accessibility methodology and the Accessibility community applaud when
>> each
>> new white paper is released but nothing, or comparitivly little ever gets
>> done. Where is the common accessibility standards between a Linux, IBM,
>> based app and a UIA - Microsoft app? What about diferent browsers and
>> diferent versions of each browser and related JS, CSS and other new
>> technicals? It is still the Wild West out there when it comes to
>> accessibility and the Screen Reader companies arefloundering to figure
>> out
>> how to handle all the crazyness that is International Corporate Egos when
>> it
>> comes to Accessibility Practices me thinks.
>> Rick USA
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 10:20 PM
>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>
>>
>>>I am speaking only of the interface. Not the languages the web is
>>>written
>>> in. When it comes right down to it we do not interface with php, pearl,
>>> asp. We interface with html weather it is served by Javascript or just
>>> a
>>> clean page of html. The html is what needs to have a blind friendly UI
>>> stuck on the front. That can mean ear cons like system access has or
>>> voice
>>> schema's like jaws but those seem to be more candy than actual helpful
>>> information.
>>>
>>> You say Firefox and Internet Explorer are very accessible I say go to
>>> www.gmail.com a very accessible site and delete 246 emails. It took me
>>> forever. My wife had over 1000 and was finished in less than 5 minutes.
>>> I don't even know how long it took her because she was done before I
>>> could
>>> time her. If I am in outlook and want to delete all the mails from
>>> one
>>> email list I do a quick search and ctrl-a and delete they are gone. .
>>> Try
>>> that on a web interface. For the sighted user many of these web
>>> interfaces
>>> look exactly like a regular application. To us they look like nasty web
>>> rather than easy to use dialogs. Another example of what I am talking
>>> about
>>> is the Google Rss reader or Google docs. My sited friends that code
>>> with
>>> me
>>> at work all use Google Rss now because it's an easy way for them to read
>>> their news at work home or on the go with their Cell phone. To them
>>> using
>>> Google Rss is as easy as me using the rss groups I have set up in
>>> Outlook
>>> or
>>> other applications designed for rss because they can act on the groups
>>> with
>>> drags of their mouse right on the web as if it was a true list try that
>>> with a screen reader. Same for Google docs. Sure you can use it but I
>>> challenge you to go make a document on google docs set up a table put
>>> some
>>> items in the table and then put headers before and after the table. See
>>> how
>>> long that takes you even if you can get it done over how long it would
>>> take
>>> you in something like word.
>>>
>>> What I am saying in short is the web right now might be accessible but
>>> it
>>> sure is a bitch to use in many cases.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine
>>> Moss
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 8:14 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>
>>> I mean firefox and internet explorer are both very accessible. What do
>>> you
>>> mean that we need to find out a whole new way to work the web for the
>>> blind.
>>> You mean to drop the technology that we've been used to for years? Do
>>> you
>>> mean no more PHP, no more Perl, no more ASP.net?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:44 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>
>>> I will second some of what people are saying here. MSDN is very nice
>>> online. The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web as
>>> easy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal
>>> with
>>> the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is
>>> but
>>>
>>> I
>>> think that is where we have to be putting all our power. Making the web
>>> as
>>> accessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs
>>> are
>>> going. We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word
>>> same
>>> for gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because the
>>> web
>>> clients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to
>>> me
>>> but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers
>>> and
>>> I
>>> mean all. If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser
>>> interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several
>>> projects
>>> I am working on that this information would come in handy.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine
>>> Moss
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>
>>> MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all
>>> who
>>> want to use it?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>
>>> When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up
>>> a browser and kept it at msdn.com. I pretty much had entered class
>>> names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members
>>> (fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc).
>>>
>>> It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's
>>> just one extra step. VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but
>>> Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering.
>>>
>>> On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once
>>>> you
>>>> learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are pretty
>>> helpful.
>>>> They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do
>>>> contain
>>>> examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and
>>>> procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations with
>>> some
>>>> examples.
>>>> The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what
>>>> a
>>>> class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods and
>>> Properties
>>>> do and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on
>>>> using
>>> a
>>>> particular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords
>>>> to
>>>> Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for
>>>> third
>>>> party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example
>>>> to
>>>> the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in
>>>> help
>>>> feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use
>>>> Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any
>>>> examples
>>> or
>>>> explanations of what selected methods or properties do.
>>>> You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as
>>>> hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS and
>>> then
>>>> get to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like
>>>> having
>>>> those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other
>>>> MSDN
>>>> pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favorites
>>> folder
>>>> or even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference
>>>> materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning
>>>> tool
>>>> than the Reference Manual. .
>>>> Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use.
>>>> There
>>>> are usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and
>>>> now
>>>> 2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual
>>>> the
>>>> embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same
>>>> version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like the
>>>> Programmer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go
>>>> from
>>>> there or the Library Heading Page..
>>>> I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use
>>>> their
>>>> docs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most
>>>> of
>>>> what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and events
>>> for
>>>> the VS features I use.
>>>> Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and
>>>> it's
>>>> related features and VWD 2008 etc...
>>>> Rick USA
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Kerneels Roos
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the
>>>> Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks
>>>> they
>>>> were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more
>>>> productive
>>>> process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all
>>>> or
>>>> complaining about it, just looking for advice :-).
>>>>
>>>> It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about
>>>> how
>>>> inaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this
>>>> special
>>>> right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's a
>>> privilege
>>>> rather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make
>>>> their
>>>> stuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from
>>>> spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do it
>>> well
>>>> even.
>>>>
>>>> If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorer
>>> for
>>>> example, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that
>>>> program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can be
>>> done
>>>> with a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particular
>>> program
>>>> is easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted people
>>> does,
>>>> but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the
>>>> screen properly.
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get
>>>> known
>>> for
>>>> being super cooperative with companies in their drive to make their
>>> software
>>>> accessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member
>>>> of
>>>> the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their
>>>> mounths
>>>> to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and
>>>> harder to make their products inclusive?
>>>>
>>>> And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to
>>>> make
>>>> them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y
>>>> to
>>>> create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible--
>>>> company Y could add value.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously
>>>> offer
>>>> their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's
>>>> all
>>>> try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen
>>>> to
>>>> ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's
>>>> not
>>>> moan and complain -- life's too short.
>>>>
>>>> OK, enough complaining about complaining!
>>>>
>>>> Enjoy the adventure of programming!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss
>>>> <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm on 11.0.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>> Littlefield,
>>>> Tyler
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running?
>>>> Rather
>>>> than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Katherine Moss
>>>>
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'll tell you,
>>>>
>>>> I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences
>>>> stuff. Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via document
>>> explorer.
>>>> I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes
>>>> they
>>>> have provided for accessibility in their own software!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
>>>> Roos
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind
>>>> Subject: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi List,
>>>>
>>>> Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net
>>>> Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer
>>>> that
>>>> ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can
>>>> get
>>> at
>>>> the information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with
>>>> the
>>>> older style CHM files that works great with JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just
>>>> the
>>>> .Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?
>>> I've
>>>> searched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as
>>>> of
>>>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I
>>>> manage
>>>> to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around with
>>> the
>>>> JAWS cursor and so on...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most
>>>> welcome!
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>
>>>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
>>> cheese!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>
>>>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
>>>> cheese!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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