RE: .Net Framework Documentation
- From: Øyvind Lode <oyvind.lode@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 10:42:45 +0200
The problem with the basic html setup in gmail is that you loose a lot of
functionality.
You can't use contacts, filters etc etc.
I use the gmail filters to filter e-mail on the server and it works great.
But using the standard interface is a pain.
But I am now fairly good at setting up filters.
It takes a lot of moving around and redrawing the screen etc.
A sighted colleague did setup a filter in 3 seconds.
So I don't use the web interface for reading e-mails.
I use my gmail account as a IMAP account in Outlook 2007.
IMAP works quite well in Outlook 2007 after some tweaking.
I've heard that Outlook 2010 has a lot of improvements regarding IMAP.
I'm looking forward to try it out.
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jacob Kruger
Sent: 8. august 2010 07:05
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
Not necessarily related, but the google I use is the specifically accessible
interface:
http://labs.google.com/accessible/
It also ranks search results a bit differently related to the WCAG
accessibility standard as well.
and, on GMail, under settings, there's an option to turn on a
simpler/accessible interface, and it remembers that setting for your account
across different machines - yes, I do also have a GMail email address, along
with around 7 others I use for different things...
Stay well
Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
> Hi Catherine,
>
> I don't think we're disputing the way Jaws or any other Windows screen
> reader's present the web in an accessible format. The issue at hand
> is that the way you experience an html page is drastically different
> from the visual presentation of it.
>
> Take for example a site as simple as Google.com. Many Jaws users may
> be shocked to find out that the page has distinct groupings (the top
> of the page has links going from left to right with various google
> properties, the middle of the page has search related functions, and
> the bottom has some misc info).
>
> Instead, Jaws presents what looks like a document; many screen reader
> users simply line down a page (that's why each link is placed on a new
> line).
>
> If you pick the webpage to be something more complex such as
> nytimes.com, or something more application centric like gmail.com,
> this becomes tremendously tedious since you'll be doing a lot of
> lining down and "find" searches. I realize the screen reader venders
> have come up with bookmarking, but it's like a band-aid on a
> fundamental problem; we need better focus management from the people
> who know where focus should be placed (i.e. the web page developers).
> Don't you find it ridiculas that when you click on an article in msdn
> or nytimes, you then have the daunting task of finding the beginning
> of the content you wish to read (beyond the banner/sidebar links).
>
> In your example, why can't you simply tab to a table? Why are there
> screen reader specific commands to move from cell to cell or row by
> row? Should the table even be seen as a table if it's used as layout?
> Why can't there be tables that act more like the listviews in native
> Windows windows?
>
>
>> I have no problem reaching tables using the commands built into JAWS and
>> system Access. Do you mean that the browser itself should support
>> keyboard
>> commands?
>>
> I think we're advocating from the venders to start adapting to a more
> DOM styled approach which will scale far better for web 2.0 properties
> and move away from virtual buffering. In other words, begin treating
> the web more like native app's than a "virtual" document with tack on
> extensions to try and cope with the tide of new changes in web
> technologies today.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:09 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>
>> Ken,
>>
>> I agree with your comments. Unfortunately, the web has evolved in
>> such a way that the major browser venders (IE, FF, Safari, etc) have
>> not been focused on the keyboard as a first class interaction method.
>> Just think about how we navigate today on the web; browsers are
>> severely limited. We can pretty much tab through links and interact
>> with a few form controls using arrow navigation. What about tables,
>> div's, dynamic javascript, etc? Why shouldn't the browsers support
>> these controls and implement a keyboard model to reach these DOM
>> elements?
>>
>> Thus, it's left to the screen reader venders to "adapt" this to meet
>> our needs; as a big hack and somewhat natural evolution of these
>> vender's focus on text, they come up with virtual buffering. Once
>> upon a time, when the web was centered around documents, this was
>> great. However, the web has become much more interactive and this
>> model really does fail.
>>
>> If any of you are interested, I'm actually a contributer to Chrome and
>> am interested in any thoughts in which you feel like we can adapt the
>> browser itself to meet our needs.
>>
>> On 8/7/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> I will second some of what people are saying here. MSDN is very nice
>>> online. The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web as
>>> easy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal
>>> with
>>> the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is
>>> but
>> I
>>> think that is where we have to be putting all our power. Making the web
>> as
>>> accessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs
>>> are
>>> going. We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word
>> same
>>> for gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because the
>> web
>>> clients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to
>>> me
>>> but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers
>>> and
>> I
>>> mean all. If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser
>>> interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several
>> projects
>>> I am working on that this information would come in handy.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine
>>> Moss
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>
>>> MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all
>>> who
>>> want to use it?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>
>>> When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up
>>> a browser and kept it at msdn.com. I pretty much had entered class
>>> names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members
>>> (fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc).
>>>
>>> It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's
>>> just one extra step. VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but
>>> Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering.
>>>
>>> On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once
>>>> you
>>>> learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are pretty
>>> helpful.
>>>> They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do
>>>> contain
>>>> examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and
>>>> procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations with
>>> some
>>>> examples.
>>>> The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what
>>>> a
>>>> class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods and
>>> Properties
>>>> do and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on
>> using
>>> a
>>>> particular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords
>>>> to
>>>> Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for
>>>> third
>>>> party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example
>>>> to
>>>> the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in
>>>> help
>>>> feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use
>>>> Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any
>>>> examples
>>> or
>>>> explanations of what selected methods or properties do.
>>>> You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as
>>>> hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS and
>>> then
>>>> get to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like
>>>> having
>>>> those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other
>>>> MSDN
>>>> pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favorites
>>> folder
>>>> or even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference
>>>> materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning
>>>> tool
>>>> than the Reference Manual. .
>>>> Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use.
>> There
>>>> are usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and
>>>> now
>>>> 2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual
>> the
>>>> embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same
>>>> version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like the
>>>> Programmer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go
>>>> from
>>>> there or the Library Heading Page..
>>>> I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use
>> their
>>>> docs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most
>>>> of
>>>> what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and events
>>> for
>>>> the VS features I use.
>>>> Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and
>>>> it's
>>>> related features and VWD 2008 etc...
>>>> Rick USA
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Kerneels Roos
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the
>>>> Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks
>>>> they
>>>> were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more
>>>> productive
>>>> process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all
>>>> or
>>>> complaining about it, just looking for advice :-).
>>>>
>>>> It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about
>>>> how
>>>> inaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this
>> special
>>>> right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's a
>>> privilege
>>>> rather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make
>> their
>>>> stuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from
>>>> spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do it
>>> well
>>>> even.
>>>>
>>>> If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorer
>>> for
>>>> example, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that
>>>> program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can be
>>> done
>>>> with a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particular
>>> program
>>>> is easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted people
>>> does,
>>>> but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the
>>>> screen properly.
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get
>>>> known
>>> for
>>>> being super cooperative with companies in their drive to make their
>>> software
>>>> accessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member
>> of
>>>> the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their
>> mounths
>>>> to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and
>>>> harder to make their products inclusive?
>>>>
>>>> And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to
>>>> make
>>>> them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y
>>>> to
>>>> create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible--
>>>> company Y could add value.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously
>>>> offer
>>>> their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's
>>>> all
>>>> try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen
>>>> to
>>>> ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's
>>>> not
>>>> moan and complain -- life's too short.
>>>>
>>>> OK, enough complaining about complaining!
>>>>
>>>> Enjoy the adventure of programming!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss
>>>> <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm on 11.0.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>> Littlefield,
>>>> Tyler
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running?
>>>> Rather
>>>> than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Katherine Moss
>>>>
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'll tell you,
>>>>
>>>> I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences
>>>> stuff. Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via document
>>> explorer.
>>>> I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes
>>>> they
>>>> have provided for accessibility in their own software!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
>>>> Roos
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind
>>>> Subject: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi List,
>>>>
>>>> Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net
>>>> Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer
>>>> that
>>>> ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can
>>>> get
>>> at
>>>> the information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with
>>>> the
>>>> older style CHM files that works great with JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just
>>>> the
>>>> .Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?
>>> I've
>>>> searched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as
>>>> of
>>>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I
>> manage
>>>> to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around with
>>> the
>>>> JAWS cursor and so on...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most
>>>> welcome!
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>
>>>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
>>> cheese!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>
>>>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
>>>> cheese!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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