RE: .Net Framework Documentation
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 12:07:16 -0400
Yes I like the idea of separate but equal to. In fact I like that there are
3 or 4 people working on that accessible page while there are how many
working on the real one? I like the fact you have to use advance search to
even get close to what you can do on real Google. I think the advance
search has to many fields in order for me to get 100 returned results which
is what I want. I think actually the real Google site is now more
accessible than that accessible site that was put out years and years ago
and has got no better. Enjoy separate but equal I will continue to work to
make the web accessible not the web in the closet.
How many companies do you know will make a separate but equal page sure the
big ones will but mom and pop shops no way.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jacob Kruger
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 1:05 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
Not necessarily related, but the google I use is the specifically accessible
interface:
http://labs
.google.com/accessible/
It also ranks search results a bit differently related to the WCAG
accessibility standard as well.
and, on GMail, under settings, there's an option to turn on a
simpler/accessible interface, and it remembers that setting for your account
across different machines - yes, I do also have a GMail email address, along
with around 7 others I use for different things...
Stay well
Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
> Hi Catherine,
>
> I don't think we're disputing the way Jaws or any other Windows screen
> reader's present the web in an accessible format. The issue at hand
> is that the way you experience an html page is drastically different
> from the visual presentation of it.
>
> Take for example a site as simple as Google.com. Many Jaws users may
> be shocked to find out that the page has distinct groupings (the top
> of the page has links going from left to right with various google
> properties, the middle of the page has search related functions, and
> the bottom has some misc info).
>
> Instead, Jaws presents what looks like a document; many screen reader
> users simply line down a page (that's why each link is placed on a new
> line).
>
> If you pick the webpage to be something more complex such as
> nytimes.com, or something more application centric like gmail.com,
> this becomes tremendously tedious since you'll be doing a lot of
> lining down and "find" searches. I realize the screen reader venders
> have come up with bookmarking, but it's like a band-aid on a
> fundamental problem; we need better focus management from the people
> who know where focus should be placed (i.e. the web page developers).
> Don't you find it ridiculas that when you click on an article in msdn
> or nytimes, you then have the daunting task of finding the beginning
> of the content you wish to read (beyond the banner/sidebar links).
>
> In your example, why can't you simply tab to a table? Why are there
> screen reader specific commands to move from cell to cell or row by
> row? Should the table even be seen as a table if it's used as layout?
> Why can't there be tables that act more like the listviews in native
> Windows windows?
>
>
>> I have no problem reaching tables using the commands built into JAWS and
>> system Access. Do you mean that the browser itself should support
>> keyboard
>> commands?
>>
> I think we're advocating from the venders to start adapting to a more
> DOM styled approach which will scale far better for web 2.0 properties
> and move away from virtual buffering. In other words, begin treating
> the web more like native app's than a "virtual" document with tack on
> extensions to try and cope with the tide of new changes in web
> technologies today.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:09 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>
>> Ken,
>>
>> I agree with your comments. Unfortunately, the web has evolved in
>> such a way that the major browser venders (IE, FF, Safari, etc) have
>> not been focused on the keyboard as a first class interaction method.
>> Just think about how we navigate today on the web; browsers are
>> severely limited. We can pretty much tab through links and interact
>> with a few form controls using arrow navigation. What about tables,
>> div's, dynamic javascript, etc? Why shouldn't the browsers support
>> these controls and implement a keyboard model to reach these DOM
>> elements?
>>
>> Thus, it's left to the screen reader venders to "adapt" this to meet
>> our needs; as a big hack and somewhat natural evolution of these
>> vender's focus on text, they come up with virtual buffering. Once
>> upon a time, when the web was centered around documents, this was
>> great. However, the web has become much more interactive and this
>> model really does fail.
>>
>> If any of you are interested, I'm actually a contributer to Chrome and
>> am interested in any thoughts in which you feel like we can adapt the
>> browser itself to meet our needs.
>>
>> On 8/7/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> I will second some of what people are saying here. MSDN is very nice
>>> online. The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web as
>>> easy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal
>>> with
>>> the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is
>>> but
>> I
>>> think that is where we have to be putting all our power. Making the web
>> as
>>> accessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs
>>> are
>>> going. We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word
>> same
>>> for gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because the
>> web
>>> clients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to
>>> me
>>> but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers
>>> and
>> I
>>> mean all. If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser
>>> interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several
>> projects
>>> I am working on that this information would come in handy.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine
>>> Moss
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>
>>> MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all
>>> who
>>> want to use it?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>
>>> When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up
>>> a browser and kept it at msdn.com. I pretty much had entered class
>>> names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members
>>> (fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc).
>>>
>>> It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's
>>> just one extra step. VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but
>>> Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering.
>>>
>>> On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once
>>>> you
>>>> learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are pretty
>>> helpful.
>>>> They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do
>>>> contain
>>>> examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and
>>>> procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations with
>>> some
>>>> examples.
>>>> The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what
>>>> a
>>>> class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods and
>>> Properties
>>>> do and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on
>> using
>>> a
>>>> particular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords
>>>> to
>>>> Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for
>>>> third
>>>> party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example
>>>> to
>>>> the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in
>>>> help
>>>> feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use
>>>> Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any
>>>> examples
>>> or
>>>> explanations of what selected methods or properties do.
>>>> You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as
>>>> hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS and
>>> then
>>>> get to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like
>>>> having
>>>> those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other
>>>> MSDN
>>>> pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favorites
>>> folder
>>>> or even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference
>>>> materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning
>>>> tool
>>>> than the Reference Manual. .
>>>> Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use.
>> There
>>>> are usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and
>>>> now
>>>> 2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual
>> the
>>>> embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same
>>>> version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like the
>>>> Programmer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go
>>>> from
>>>> there or the Library Heading Page..
>>>> I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use
>> their
>>>> docs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most
>>>> of
>>>> what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and events
>>> for
>>>> the VS features I use.
>>>> Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and
>>>> it's
>>>> related features and VWD 2008 etc...
>>>> Rick USA
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Kerneels Roos
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the
>>>> Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks
>>>> they
>>>> were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more
>>>> productive
>>>> process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all
>>>> or
>>>> complaining about it, just looking for advice :-).
>>>>
>>>> It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about
>>>> how
>>>> inaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this
>> special
>>>> right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's a
>>> privilege
>>>> rather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make
>> their
>>>> stuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from
>>>> spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do it
>>> well
>>>> even.
>>>>
>>>> If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorer
>>> for
>>>> example, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that
>>>> program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can be
>>> done
>>>> with a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particular
>>> program
>>>> is easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted people
>>> does,
>>>> but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the
>>>> screen properly.
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get
>>>> known
>>> for
>>>> being super cooperative with companies in their drive to make their
>>> software
>>>> accessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member
>> of
>>>> the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their
>> mounths
>>>> to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and
>>>> harder to make their products inclusive?
>>>>
>>>> And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to
>>>> make
>>>> them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y
>>>> to
>>>> create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible--
>>>> company Y could add value.
>>>>
>>>> I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously
>>>> offer
>>>> their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's
>>>> all
>>>> try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen
>>>> to
>>>> ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's
>>>> not
>>>> moan and complain -- life's too short.
>>>>
>>>> OK, enough complaining about complaining!
>>>>
>>>> Enjoy the adventure of programming!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss
>>>> <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm on 11.0.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>> Littlefield,
>>>> Tyler
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running?
>>>> Rather
>>>> than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Katherine Moss
>>>>
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'll tell you,
>>>>
>>>> I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences
>>>> stuff. Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via document
>>> explorer.
>>>> I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes
>>>> they
>>>> have provided for accessibility in their own software!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
>>>> Roos
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind
>>>> Subject: .Net Framework Documentation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi List,
>>>>
>>>> Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net
>>>> Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer
>>>> that
>>>> ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can
>>>> get
>>> at
>>>> the information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with
>>>> the
>>>> older style CHM files that works great with JAWS.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just
>>>> the
>>>> .Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?
>>> I've
>>>> searched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as
>>>> of
>>>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I
>> manage
>>>> to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around with
>>> the
>>>> JAWS cursor and so on...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most
>>>> welcome!
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>
>>>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
>>> cheese!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>
>>>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
>>>> cheese!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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