Re: Getting started learning VB6

  • From: Dave <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 07:36:02 -0800

Hey Rick,

I totally agree with you.  With the scenarios you laid out below, it's
pretty clear cut who looks better on paper.

However, say the high school grad hacker produced an open source
project that tops downloads on sourceforge; or, perhaps it had been
marketed to a specialized audience (I'm thinking some very narrow use
case like nemeth to la tex translation).

To get past the door at a big company's HR department isn't too
difficult especially if you've proven yourself enough to get someone
on the inside to take notice (and some of the above will definitely do
that).  Also, if you have legit "keywords" on your resume, most HR
departments even in the U.S. would not have a big problem giving you a
45 minute phone screen.

If you Google for the type of technical questions asked by Microsoft
et al, you will see the type of rigorous interview process employed by
tech.  You are asked to answer lots of questions that can range from
any aspect of computer science and code up solutions on the board.
This is done throughout the day of interview and usually involves 5 or
more people.

While a computer science degree isn't strictly necessary nor is a
college degree, it will help.  Doing a hell of a lot of coding will
also help.  Having read the "goto" books on specific topics will also
help.  For example, your high school hacker will have not likely read
"CLRS" or "SICP", which means they will have trouble talking about
some of the concepts that they may grasp intuitively.  It is when that
hacker *has* read it and really was motivated out of need to read and
see value in doing the exercises that you say to the employer, damn I
*want* you on my team.

With that said, there's nothing better motivating than to bomb an
interview and anyone that wants to try and think they can hack one can
write me offlist.

Funny thing is that the difference I've perceived from your average to
bad canidates to your good/great ones is the better ones *understand*
at a very deep and theoretical level what's going on while the others
can't talk about solving a problem at an abstract level.  Some of
those theory driven academia guys still can't code their way out of a
paper box, but that's usually rare.


On 2/16/11, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi: OK, lets play a game. You are the manager of a Human Resources
> Department at some company like IBM, GM or another Company or Government
> Agency.
> You have one job opening for a Computer Programmer. The job requires
> demonstrated skills inProgramming in Visual Studio using Sql Server in a
> Distributed Network environment. The applicant will be developing and
> maintaining a new Accounting System for the company and there will be 25
> other Programmers on the project so you will be working with advanced Design
> Tools, Testing Systems such as some Unit Testing software and advanced UML
> or other tools. Now, Mr Human Resource Manager... here are 2 applicants for
> this job that starts at $50,000 per year.
> First Applicant:
> I have a High School education but learned to write computer programs on my
> own over the past 2 years at home in my spare time. I have coded a checkbook
> balancing program using VB.net and CSharp. I Have managed to use Sql Server
> Express as the Database. I have coded my project using Notepad but not
> worked in Visual Studio much yet although I feel confident I can learn to
> work around any accessibility issues and learn to be productive in that
> Enterprise Level IDE environment.  For these reasons I feel quite qualified
> to help develop your International Acounting System in the Distributed
> Enterprise Level Environment you have described and feel I am the best
> person for the job.
> Second Applicant for same job:
> I have a BS in Computer Science with a Minor in Business Administration and
> Accounting. I have 2 years experience in Computer Programming using
> Enterprise Level Visual Studio and other Third Party Products.
> My Formal Education included several Programming Languages includeing VB.net
> and CSharp working in a Distributed Enterprise Level Visual Studio
> Environment.
> It also included using various File Management tools and Productivity tools
> such as Sql Server, various Sequential and Skip Sequential file management
> tools  and several other Programming languages such as JAVA and various
> Distributed Networking Languages and Networking Management tools. I have
> also worked in a International Distributed Enterprise level environment
> working for JP Morgan.Along with my classes in using advanced tools such as
> Unit Testing software, Enterprise Edition Project management tools, UML and
> advanced training in Modular Design and various communications interfaces
> with Mainframes, I have practical experience using these tools while with JP
> Morgan.
> I have several references from my University Instructors and JP Morgan
> Management regarding my qualifications for this job.
> For these reasons I feel quite qualified to help develop your International
> Acounting System in the Distributed Enterprise Level Environment you have
> described and feel I am the best person for the job.
> Now, Mr Human Resources Manager, after you interview perhaps another 50 or
> so applicants with the same or better credentials than the second candidate,
> exactly what chance of getting that $50,000 per year job do you think the
> first, blind, candidate has?
> If you would hire the first candidate you will not be the Human Resources
> Manager for long me thinks...
> The first candidate may be fine for the job but how will you know that? I
> would hire the person with 4 years education in Computer Science with a
> solid background in Communications, Programming, Math and all that jazz
> rather than a High Schooler with some background in home PCs. My family
> depends on my hiring the best candidate for the job and my best choice would
> be the second candidate, hands down.
> So, while it is cool to think of the luck of the draw in getting a job
> without a formal education it is not something I would recommend hanging
> your hat on. And, since my posts are about my recommendations, it is what it
> is and I recommend a formal education. If you can't handle a University
> Level program you will not be able to handle working in this field at any
> Professional Level unless you are very, very lucky. So, my recommendation
> remains... If you want to learn to program you can do it starting out with
> any simple programming language, perhaps vbscript or something simple and
> then moving into VB.net or CSharp either inside the IDE or just using the
> command line option as mentioned in prior posts. If you want to become a
> Professional, bite the bullet and  figure out some way to get some formal
> education..
> I don't know what else to say on this subject, that's all I have so I'll let
> it rest here. Others have other opinions but this is my opinion and I'm
> sticking to it.
> Remember, it's not only the programming language you learn but the other
> classes in English, foreign languages, Math, Science and other fields like
> Business, engineering, Logic and a set of diverse Computer related classes
> that you will have to offer an employer over someone without a formal
> education and those things weigh heavy in any decission to hire someone.
> Without the logic learning of various Math and Grammer classes you will
> always be lacking in those skills. If you can learn them at all it will not
> take twice as long, it will take at least 10 times as long and likely much
> longer than that.
> So that's all I have...
> Having been there, hiring advisor, this remains my opinion about a formal
> education versus AdHock learning without some level of post High School
> education...
> Getting a real, professional career is not a game of Space Invaders, it's a
> war and a formal education is your first line of weaponry. Go up against
> someone with superior weaponry and you are most likely to come out on the
> short end.
> Rick USA
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Kerneels Roos
>   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>   Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 8:14 AM
>   Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
>
>   I would always promote formal education. Information Technology is one
> field where you could get professional without formal education, but I think
> it's a much tougher road and it will probably take you twice as long. Also,
> should you want to apply for a job where maths or a science background is
> required you be less appropriate than someone with a simple computer science
> degree.
>
>   I would encourage anyone with an interest in Information Technology and a
> reasonable aptitude to try and study. It might open up a world to you that
> you never knew existed. I would also encourage experienced individuals
> without a formal education to investigate study options. A person with say
> 10 years programming experience could try do a Masters degree for example.
> In computer science they might just let you start there if you have a proven
> experience. Well, no matter what, any worth while university should give an
> experienced professional "discount" if you will, that will allow him or her
> to forgo some years of study. If they insist you start with Programming 101
> the whole place / department isn't worth their weight in construction
> rubble.
>
>   A degree is however not the be all and end all, it's just a kick start if
> you like. I really respect people that for one reason or another were not
> able to study but yet gained enough experience to be competant at what they
> do. What I don't like is when people without formal education feel
> threatened by people who did study and then forever poo poo any kind of
> accademical idea, or anything that is a bit more complicated.
>
>   The same goes for formally qualified individuals who can't appreciate
> simplicity and forever want to complicate things -- a sort of accademical /
> intellectual snobbery. None of the above will help in the real world.
>
>   Since I was so fortunate to have been able to study at one of our
> country's finest and world class universities, I'll end with a quote you
> brilliant self-taught professionals might appreciate; it's a quote one
> professor found, smiling back at him, on the very last page of long exam
> answer sheet:
>
>   "Those who can, do.
>   Those who can't, teach."
>
>   Kind regards,
>   Kerneels
>
>
>   On 2/16/2011 2:30 PM, Jacques Bosch wrote:
>     I must be an exception to the rule. :)
>     But I am definitely not advocating that you shouldn't go for a formal
> education if at all possible. I was only sharing my story. But then I really
> did work very hard at it and have read very many books and articles over the
> last 12 years, and had some good input from prior colleagues.
>     However, I know several good professionals that have similar stories
> here in SA.
>
>
>     Jacques
>
>
>     On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 2:18 PM, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>       Hi: There is just no substitute for a quality formal education. Ask
> the folks who run the Human Resources Department at any major company or
> government agency. Perhaps overseas this is diferent. I have found the
> education systems quite diferent here and abroad as well as the hiring
> practices. Here in the United States there is no question that you need some
> University level education if you want to get a job with a Major Company
> where you might be able to work for many years and make a living wage for
> your family.There always exceptions but they are very, very rare.
>       If you do not live in the U.S. or you think you can make a living
> contracting at world-wide competitive wages such as in India, Bangladesh,
> Romainia   or other Third World Developing countries then you can go for it.
> But, if you want a job with GM, Ford, BA, AAA, AA, MERC or any other major
> company or any Us or State or even Local Government agency you will need
> some level of formal education. Again there might be an exception to this,
> especially if you are blind, but it is not likely nor will you find any
> channels for professional advancement in your career.
>       Rick USA
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         From: Jacques Bosch
>         To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>         Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:48 AM
>         Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
>
>         Well, in most cases, probably. But I still maintain, not in all.
>         But, hey, that is just me and MHO :)
>
>
>         On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 1:26 PM, John G <jglists0@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>           i think a clear distinction needs to be drawn between
>           programming
>           and
>           engineering, the latter being a skill or a set of skills for which
> a formal training is essential.
>
>
>           At 11:12 16/02/2011, you wrote:
>
>             Hi: If you are considering becoming a Professional, there is no
> substitute for a formal education at a quality University. If you get a
> degree from a good State  University you will have the logic, cognitive and
> other skills to become a professional programmer. That is not something you
> are likely to do on your own. Perhaps someone else has done it but in the
> field they will require at least a degree, 2 or 4 years, and they will
> prefer experience as well. You can get the degree from the school and
> perhaps some experience there as well through the Financial Aid Center or by
> volunteering to help or even tutor other students. Everything you can get to
> put on a resume is what you want and sitting in your paren'ts basement
> playing with your computer is not likely to give you much to put on a
> resume.
>             Rick USA
>
>             ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>             To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>             Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:51 PM
>             Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
>
>
>               .net comes with compilers, as far as I know. the user could
> learn a worth-while language, while still learning to program. You will not
> find to many job opportunities around that use Libertybasic, if any, as well
> as the fact that you need to pay for Libertybasic, and it still has an IDE
> as well as a really whacked syntax you need to learn. I believe (and many
> schools seem to be thinking along the same lines as I am), that the OP would
> be fine learning something like that.
>               On 2/15/2011 1:20 PM, RicksPlace wrote:
>
>                 Hi: Mono sounds nice but I would not recommend it for a raw
> beginner. Actually I would not recommend VB.net to a raw programming
> beginner. A true beginner needs a really simple platform like that provided
> by some simple scripting language or a easy to learn platform like Power
> Basic or Liberty Basic. The concepts of how to write a program by solving
> problems one step at a time and then coding one statement, one step, at a
> time will be daunting enough. Trying to learn to navigate the VS IDE on top
> of that is too much to expect from a totally raw beginner. What is a
> variable? What types of variables are there? How would you open a door one
> step at a time? How would you balance your checkbook one step at a time and
> use algebra symbols in the example solution along with If and End If
> statements. These are the things that a beginner needs to learn. The syntax
> of a language are secondary to learning how to perform problem solving using
> math symbols and then conditional statements and pseudo code and finally
> using the syntax of an English Like language. Anyway, I recommend that if
> the beginner does not have any programming experience he try vbscript,
> Liberty Basic or perhaps Power Basic or something along those lines to learn
> about using computer code to solve real world problems before tackling a
> productivity tool like VB.net or Visual Studio. There are e-lists dedicated
> to these easier languages and when I was learning I found those folks really
> helpful and willing to do some hand-holding while I learned about things.
>                 Perhaps learning to do some simple applications using
> VbScript would be a good way to learn about variables, loops and conditional
> statements. Then move up to try something like VB.net.
>                 That way he would just write some computer statements in a
> text editor, run them as a simple script and learn about the basic
> programming concepts without worrying about the complexity of the Vb.net IDE
> which can be daunting in and of itself.
>                 Rick USA.
>                 ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV
> NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
>                 To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>                 Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 1:08 PM
>                 Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6
>
>
>                 Mono differs from dot net in that version 2.0 of dot net and
> mono work
>                 together across several platforms.  Later versions of dot
> net are in the
>                 works for support on mono though.
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                 [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Littlefield,
>                 Tyler
>                 Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:53
>                 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                 Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
>                 Mono is not the same as the .net framework. Just get the
> express edition
>
>                 and you're good. Also: if you are a student, you get vs 2010
> free, and
>                 Microsoft also gives out vs 2010 ultimate to MSDNAA members.
>                 On 2/15/2011 9:31 AM, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1,
> 26 wrote:
>
>                   There may not be enough money to use and learn dot net.
> Fortunately,
>                   mono can be installed and will run on Windows as well as
> Linux and the
>                   price tag is $0.00.
>
>
>                   -----Original Message-----
>                   From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                   [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of DaShiell,
>                   Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
>                   Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:28
>                   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                   Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6
>
>                   No, not without knowing your visual status.  If you have
> memory of
>                   having had vision or better yet have a little useable
> vision your best
>                   bet would be to learn the language with windows forms.  If
> you have no
>                   memory of vision, then your best bet would be to learn the
> language
>                   using the console interface, and these are two completely
> different
>                   paths.
>
>
>                   -----Original Message-----
>                   From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                   [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Otis D
>
>                 Blue
>
>                   Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:22
>                   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                   Subject: Getting started learning VB6
>
>                   Hi,
>
>                   Could someone suggest where I can go to learn how to use
> VB as a
>                   beginner?
>                   I would like to get the understanding of the language and
> how to
>
>                 create
>
>                   software with it.
>
>                   Otis Blue
>
>                   Join Blind-entrepreneurs by subscribing at
>                   blind-entrepreneurs-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                   Rules for the list is simple.
>                   Be respectful to everyone and no fial language.  It's ok
> to post
>
>                 useful
>
>                   information to the list that will benefit other users.
> The list is
>                   mainly
>                   for discussion of business and owning a business.
> Everyone is welcome
>                   to
>                   join and learn about opening a business.  Accessible
> software that's
>                   been
>                   developed by yourself or something you had made can be
> sold on the
>
>                 list
>
>                   if
>                   it's going to benefit other business owners.  Other than
> that, Thanks
>                   for
>                   joining the Blind-Entrepreneurs group.
>
>
>                   __________
>                   View the list's information and change your settings at
>                   //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>                   __________
>                   View the list's information and change your settings at
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>
>
>
>
>
>               --
>
>               Thanks,
>               Ty
>
>               __________
>               View the list's information and change your settings at
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>
>
>
>             __________
>             View the list's information and change your settings at
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>
>           __________
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>
>
>
>
>         --
>
>         Jacques Bosch
>
>         Software Architecture and Development
>         Independent Contractor
>         Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726
>         E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>
>     Jacques Bosch
>
>     Software Architecture and Development
>     Independent Contractor
>     Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726
>     E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>
> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
>
> "There are only two kinds of programming languages in the world; those
> everyone complains about, and those nobody uses."
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